Philosophy Now Forum

We can either resist a bad act or cannot. In the first case, there is no guilt since we cannot resist it further. We are obviously don't feel guilt in the second case.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:53 pm We can either resist a bad act or cannot. In the first case, there is no guilt since we cannot resist it further. We are obviously don't feel guilt in the second case.

seems to me, a human beings has a conscience...shame is a function of that conscience...joe steals from stan: he nay never fess up, but he knows he done wrong...it is, as the sayin' goes, a skeleton in his closet

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:53 pm We can either resist a bad act or cannot. In the first case, there is no guilt since we cannot resist it further. We are obviously don't feel guilt in the second case.

seems to me, a human beings has a conscience...shame is a function of that conscience...joe steals from stan: he nay never fess up, but he knows he done wrong...it is, as the sayin' goes, a skeleton in his closet

Well, the question is whether we try or not do avoid doing wrong. What I am saying is that we should not feel ashamed if we try and cannot resist bad and do bad.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:30 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:53 pm We can either resist a bad act or cannot. In the first case, there is no guilt since we cannot resist it further. We are obviously don't feel guilt in the second case.

seems to me, a human beings has a conscience...shame is a function of that conscience...joe steals from stan: he nay never fess up, but he knows he done wrong...it is, as the sayin' goes, a skeleton in his closet

Well, the question is whether we try or not do avoid doing wrong. What I am saying is that we should not feel ashamed if we try and cannot resist bad and do bad.

I think the pedophile who can't resist his appetite ought to feel great shame

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:30 pm Well, the question is whether we try or not do avoid doing wrong. What I am saying is that we should not feel ashamed if we try and cannot resist bad and do bad.

I think it is important what the words shame and guilt are referring to - regret might be another one to include. (for me shame and guilt are not the same, but I think that discussion need not be gone into.)

To me we need to look at more of the situation. It's not just this discrete event. You do something that is considered bad and it has bad consequences. Should we feel bad?

I think that's a limited look at the situation.

I dont' think guilt helps, but I think regret can. Feeling bad about the consequences could make it easier, for example, to resist the next time. Further IT IS a real reaction. If I have a friend and I 'couldn't help' but talk badly about him behind his bad to someone else AND my friend finds out and feels terrible and my natural empathy makes me feel terrible

I think it is confused to say I shouldn't feel bad (or guilty or ashamed).

I think it is also problematic to see me as a static individual. I can't help but do X.

But that may not be true at all. I may very well learn from the experience. Jesus, I don't want my friends to feel terrible. (which by the way need not be guilt. Feeling bad about something one has done need not be guilt. It can be regret. It can come from empathy and not some mulling over one's badness. One can focus on the act and one's feelings about what happened.

Further the original seemingly inevitable inability to resist the bad act, could actually have included other factors - I was actually envious of my friend or angry at him for something and this led me not to consider how my bad act might affect him. That's just scratching the surface of other factors. And thus scratching the surface of what one might learn from this.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:30 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:30 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:31 pm
seems to me, a human beings has a conscience...shame is a function of that conscience...joe steals from stan: he nay never fess up, but he knows he done wrong...it is, as the sayin' goes, a skeleton in his closet

Well, the question is whether we try or not do avoid doing wrong. What I am saying is that we should not feel ashamed if we try and cannot resist bad and do bad.

I think the pedophile who can't resist his appetite ought to feel great shame

up until he feels a rusty dull knife dismember him, after which he can feel himself bleed to death...

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:36 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:30 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:30 pm
Well, the question is whether we try or not do avoid doing wrong. What I am saying is that we should not feel ashamed if we try and cannot resist bad and do bad.

I think the pedophile who can't resist his appetite ought to feel great shame

up until he feels a rusty dull knife dismember him, after which he can feel himself bleed to death...

-Imp

I'd prefer the last thing to cross his mind be a bullet, but -- yeah -- a blade will do

bullets are like like guillotines, too quick and easy...

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:48 pm bullets are like like guillotines, too quick and easy...

-Imp

I'm not inclined to spend a lotta time takin' out garbage