Philosophy Now Forum

"We can only know one thing about God - that he is what we are not. Our wretchedness alone is an image of this. The more we contemplate it, the more we contemplate him." Simone Weil

This is just too insulting for polite PC company. Think of the effect on self esteem. What to do with these people like this kid who said the emperor has no clothes? He was taken away never to be heard from again. Peace was restored.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:47 am

"We can only know one thing about God - that he is what we are not. Our wretchedness alone is an image of this. The more we contemplate it, the more we contemplate him." Simone Weil

This is just too insulting for polite PC company. Think of the effect on self esteem. What to do with these people like this kid who said the emperor has no clothes? He was taken away never to be heard from again. Peace was restored.

If this is "How to Know God", then what IS 'God'?

Age wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:54 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:47 am

"We can only know one thing about God - that he is what we are not. Our wretchedness alone is an image of this. The more we contemplate it, the more we contemplate him." Simone Weil

This is just too insulting for polite PC company. Think of the effect on self esteem. What to do with these people like this kid who said the emperor has no clothes? He was taken away never to be heard from again. Peace was restored.

If this is "How to Know God", then what IS 'God'?

God is ineffable so Man cannot really know God. However man can know or experience dunamis ; the power of God through our intelligence

Sometimes through awe and wonder a person can experience the wholeness or unity of creation and can contemplate it. This is dunamis. It is what we are not. We lack inner unity.

Jesus returns as a Lion.



The giant in front of you is never bigger than the God who lives in you.

Real is what IS. Reality is how we interpret it. All genuine seekers of truth intuitively know this. So why believe or live in our interpretations. Just be open to receive what IS.

"To believe in God is not a decision we can make. All we can do is decide not to give our love to false gods. In the first place, we can decide not to believe that the future contains for us an all-sufficient good. The future is made of the same stuff as the present....

"...It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God. This refusal does not presuppose belief. It is enough to recognize, what is obvious to any mind, that all the goods of this world, past, present, or future, real or imaginary, are finite and limited and radically incapable of satisfying the desire which burns perpetually with in us for an infinite and perfect good... It is not a matter of self-questioning or searching. A man has only to persist in his refusal, and one day or another God will come to him."
-- Weil, Simone, ON SCIENCE, NECESSITY, AND THE LOVE OF GOD, edited by Richard Rees, London, Oxford University Press, 1968.-

©

Idolatry comes from the fact that, while thirsting for absolute good, we do not possess the power of supernatural attention and we have not the patience to allow it to develop (Simone Weil, Gravity and Grace 53).

How was she able to express such profound ideas in such a laconic fashion? Idolatry is a good example. Many are willing to accept and justify idolatry and all the evils that can come from a blind belief in idolatry. Many believe that idolatry is a strength but actually it is a weakness. Idolatry is the result of our collective loss of the inability to sustain conscious impartial attention. As a result, a person cannot receive from above but limit themselves to imagination and the idolatry it creates.

Of course the mistake atheists make is in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To free oneself of idolatry is beneficial but how to do it without denying the inner vertical psychological direction leading to our source. Not so easy.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm

Age wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:54 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:47 am

This is just too insulting for polite PC company. Think of the effect on self esteem. What to do with these people like this kid who said the emperor has no clothes? He was taken away never to be heard from again. Peace was restored.

If this is "How to Know God", then what IS 'God'?

God is ineffable

When 'you', just one single individual human being who exists for a relatively nothing amount period of time, says, "God is ineffable", are you talking for ALL human beings and for ALL time, or, are you speaking just for 'you' and for select few other people that you know of?

In other words, are you just speaking a relative 'truth' from your perspective only, or, are you 'trying to' speak thee absolute, objective 'Truth'?

See, 'you' are NOT speaking for 'me'.

Just so you are FULLY AWARE 'God' is NOT 'ineffable', to 'me'. is this understood, by 'you'?

Also, and blatantly obvious, IF 'God is ineffable', then there is NO way to "Know God".

To 'know' some 'thing' is to have knowledge of 'it'.
But if some 'thing' can not be expressed nor described in words, by someone, then how much knowledge does that one really have of that 'thing'?
What proof is there that that one really 'Knows' that 'thing'?

If one is to suggest that they KNOW God, or that they KNOW 'how to Know God', then if they can not express nor describe this in words, then what use is there in saying ANY of this at all?

The one that they are Truly fooling here is that 'self'.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm so Man cannot really know God.

So, here 'you' are, a human being, proposing that 'you' KNOW 'how to Know God', but then challenged/questioned about this, then you claim that 'Man', human beings, cannot really know God. Which is quite convenient, for 'you'.

If 'you' cannot know God, then, it logically follows, that you also certainly cannot know 'how to Know God'.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm However man can know or experience dunamis ;

Changing words around now does not help your case here.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm the power of God through our intelligence

Are you at all able to explain or express and describe in words what the word 'our' refers to EXACTLY when 'you' say, "our intelligence"?

By the way, once 'you' learn and understand what God is EXACTLY, then you will SEE the humorous side of what you wrote here.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm Sometimes through awe and wonder a person can experience the wholeness or unity of creation and can contemplate it.

And once 'you' learn and REALLY Know God, then you will understand that you can at ALL times experience the wholeness AND unity of Creation, Itself.

When 'you' REALLY KNOW some 'thing' FULLY, then you do not have to 'contemplate it'.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm This is dunamis.

'What' is 'dunamis'? Or, is 'this' ineffable too?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm It is what we are not.

Are 'you' even able to explain, express, or describe what 'we' are, EXACTLY?

Or, are 'we' ineffable also?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm We lack inner unity.

You are saying what 'things' are NOT. You are NOT express what they are, EXACTLY.

Also, and by the way, if 'we' refers to human beings, or what 'you' call Man, then what is soon to be REVEALED, and thus become KNOWN, is that within human beings there IS 'inner Unity'.

'You', human beings, in the days of when this is being written are just NOT YET FULLY AWARE of this.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:17 pm Real is what IS. Reality is how we interpret it.

And this IS 'your' interpretation.

To others, 'Real' is what IS (or what is really happening), and, 'Reality' is what 'can be done' (or is about to come).

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:17 pm All genuine seekers of truth intuitively know this. So why believe or live in our interpretations. Just be open to receive what IS.

So, do 'you', "nick_a", KNOW WHY 'you' are NOT 'just open to receive what IS'?

When 'you' are Truly OPEN, then 'you' will KNOW WHY, and you will also be able to answer this, in words, that is CLEARLY effable.

Also, WHY do you believe or live in 'your' OWN interpretations?

Again, when 'you' are Truly OPEN, then 'you' will KNOW WHY, and so be able to prevent it from happening again. You will also be able to explain this in a CLEARLY effable way.

"To believe in God is not a decision we can make.

LOL

Millions of people will DISAGREE with this.

i, for one, CHOOSE whether to believe 'in God', or not.

But, then again, i ACTUALLY DO KNOW who and what 'i' AM, and, who and what 'God' IS.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:17 pm All we can do is decide not to give our love to false gods. In the first place, we can decide not to believe that the future contains for us an all-sufficient good. The future is made of the same stuff as the present....

And what is this 'stuff' EXACTLY?

Or is 'this' ineffable as well?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:17 pm "...It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God. This refusal does not presuppose belief. It is enough to recognize, what is obvious to any mind, that all the goods of this world, past, present, or future, real or imaginary, are finite and limited and radically incapable of satisfying the desire which burns perpetually with in us for an infinite and perfect good... It is not a matter of self-questioning or searching. A man has only to persist in his refusal, and one day or another God will come to him."
-- Weil, Simone, ON SCIENCE, NECESSITY, AND THE LOVE OF GOD, edited by Richard Rees, London, Oxford University Press, 1968.-

WHY are 'you' so fixated on and follow/believe the words of just one human being?

WHY NOT just believe in everything that IS God, instead of believing in the words of just one human being who obviously can NOT define 'that' what it speaks of?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:41 pm

Idolatry comes from the fact that, while thirsting for absolute good, we do not possess the power of supernatural attention and we have not the patience to allow it to develop (Simone Weil, Gravity and Grace 53).

How was she able to express such profound ideas in such a laconic fashion?

The EXACT SAME way when EVERY human being expresses profound ideas in such a laconic fashion.

LEARN and UNDERSTAND what 'this way' IS EXACTLY, then 'you' will UNDERSTAND FAR MORE than what 'you' and that person did when this was written.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:41 pm Idolatry is a good example. Many are willing to accept and justify idolatry and all the evils that can come from a blind belief in idolatry.

And 'you', "nick_a", are a PRIME EXAMPLE of idolatry, itself. Who 'you' continually IDOLIZE is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:41 pm Many believe that idolatry is a strength but actually it is a weakness. Idolatry is the result of our collective loss of the inability to sustain conscious impartial attention. As a result, a person cannot receive from above but limit themselves to imagination and the idolatry it creates.

People are NOT 'limited' by 'imagination'. 'Imagination', itself, is limitless and unbounded.

'you', "nick_a", cannot receive FULLY from 'above' because 'you' idolize that one individual human being, labelled "simone", and follow and believe the words from that one, wholeheartedly, although that one can NOT clarify and express CLEARLY.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:41 pm Of course the mistake atheists make is in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To free oneself of idolatry is beneficial but how to do it without denying the inner vertical psychological direction leading to our source. Not so easy.

If you say and believe so, then it MUST BE 'true', correct?

Age

God or the ONE is as I understand it, is pure consciousness beyond the limits of time and space and Man’s faculties arising from the earth so is considered ineffable. I AM that I AM. The problem begins including you and me, when we no longer contemplate it but prefer to interpret it into idolatry.

Dunamis is the experience of the power of God. Einstein felt it but had no need to interpret the ineffable into idolatry.

“Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.”

Are you at all able to explain or express and describe in words what the word 'our' refers to EXACTLY when 'you' say, "our intelligence"?

Human intelligence as opposed to animal intelligence is the conscious ability to contemplate our creator “Our” refers to human being as opposed to animal being.

Also, and by the way, if 'we' refers to human beings, or what 'you' call Man, then what is soon to be REVEALED, and thus become KNOWN, is that within human beings there IS 'inner Unity'.

Inner unity is the result of the three parts of the tripartite soul becoming one. It is the human potential. The human condition for Man on earth is to live in inner opposition since the three parts remain divided.

What does it mean to believe in God? A person believes in God on Monday and reacts on Tuesday in ways reflecting disbelief. Millions of people act in this way but I don’t call it belief.

People are NOT 'limited' by 'imagination'. 'Imagination', itself, is limitless and unbounded.

Imagination and conscious attention are mutually exclusive. Imagination is unbounded since it is unreal. Conscious attention is bounded since it leads to the truth of the human condition. A true seeker of truth is rare because people as a whole prefer the security of imagination.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:47 am

"We can only know one thing about God - that he is what we are not. Our wretchedness alone is an image of this. The more we contemplate it, the more we contemplate him." Simone Weil

This is just too insulting for polite PC company. Think of the effect on self esteem. What to do with these people like this kid who said the emperor has no clothes? He was taken away never to be heard from again. Peace was restored.

My counter,
God is an Impossibility to be real
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

If the above, then God cannot be known to be real at all.

To 'know' is to have real knowledge.
What is real knowledge is Justified True Belief -JTB [Gettier aside].
The JTB with the most credible knowledge is the scientific JTB.
God that is believed based on faith cannot be known scientifically.
Therefore God cannot be known as real.

God nevertheless can be thought of as an idea-in-mind.
The idea of God is useful and VERY effective to deal with an inherent and unavoidable existential psychological issue.
But such usefulness of a God is a double-edged-sword which at end end had brought forth terrible sufferings, evil and violence to humans and will continue to do so in the future with the possibility of the extinction of the humans species [note Islam].

To prevent the very terrible evil and violence, it would be a net-positive to wean off totally the idea of God from all humans, thus there will be ZERO God-based evil and violence.
This can be done with replacing the idea of God with fool proof secular practices to deal with the inherent and unavoidable existential issue.

Your continual exhortation of the belief in God [illusory] [for personal selfish reason to deal with a psychological issue] is in a way complicit to the terrible evil and violence associated with a God.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:13 pm
Just so you are FULLY AWARE 'God' is NOT 'ineffable', to 'me'. is this understood, by 'you'?

Also, and blatantly obvious, IF 'God is ineffable', then there is NO way to "Know God".

Unless of course it's '' Simone Weil's '' knowing.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am Age

God or the ONE is as I understand it, is pure consciousness beyond the limits of time and space and Man’s faculties arising from the earth so is considered ineffable.

"... is considered ineffable" by who exactly?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am I AM that I AM. The problem begins including you and me, when we no longer contemplate it but prefer to interpret it into idolatry.

But that may well be a 'problem' if, and only IF, one was to do that.

I do NOT do that.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am Dunamis is the experience of the power of God. Einstein felt it but had no need to interpret the ineffable into idolatry.

There is NO 'need' to interpret 'that', what you INTERPRET is 'ineffable', into idolatry.

BUT, this is EXACTLY what 'you' appear to be doing here.

By the way, do you even understand what I have been saying so far?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am

“Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.”

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am

age wrote: Are you at all able to explain or express and describe in words what the word 'our' refers to EXACTLY when 'you' say, "our intelligence"?

Human intelligence as opposed to animal intelligence is the conscious ability to contemplate our creator “Our” refers to human being as opposed to animal being.

But WHY do you feel the 'need' to 'contemplate' 'that', which is ALREADY KNOWN?

Also, are you suggesting, or contemplating, that there is a Creator to 'you', human beings, which is somehow different, or opposed, to some Creator to OTHER animal beings?

What is the difference between, so called, "human intelligence" from, so called, "animal intelligence"? And, are you aware that 'you', human beings, are just ANOTHER 'animal'?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am

age wrote: Also, and by the way, if 'we' refers to human beings, or what 'you' call Man, then what is soon to be REVEALED, and thus become KNOWN, is that within human beings there IS 'inner Unity'.

Inner unity is the result of the three parts of the tripartite soul becoming one. It is the human potential. The human condition for Man on earth is to live in inner opposition since the three parts remain divided.

This may well be happening TO 'you', but this is because 'you' do NOT YET KNOW how to ACTUALLY KNOW God, Itself.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am What does it mean to believe in God? A person believes in God on Monday and reacts on Tuesday in ways reflecting disbelief. Millions of people act in this way but I don’t call it belief.

Why did 'you' ASK this question, and then ANSWER your OWN question here?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am

age wrote: People are NOT 'limited' by 'imagination'. 'Imagination', itself, is limitless and unbounded.

Imagination and conscious attention are mutually exclusive.

So what?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am Imagination is unbounded since it is unreal.

What does the word 'it' refer to, EXACTLY?

And if 'it' refers to 'Imagination', then what do 'you' mean by, "Imagination is unreal"?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am Conscious attention is bounded since it leads to the truth of the human condition.

And what IS thee REASON WHY 'you' have NOT YET found what the Truth of the 'human condition' IS?

Once 'you' ACTUALLY KNOW thee 'human condition', then you will be able to EXPLAIN and CLARIFY this.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 am A true seeker of truth is rare because people as a whole prefer the security of imagination.

What is the ACTUAL difference between a 'true seeker' of truth from a 'false seeker' of truth?

Also, if there is such a thing as "people as a whole", then this would refute your claim that "a 'true seeker' of truth is rare".

Also, and by the way, if 'imagination' is unreal, then there is NO REAL 'imagination'. So, there could NOT also be an actual 'security of imagination'.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:49 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:13 pm
Just so you are FULLY AWARE 'God' is NOT 'ineffable', to 'me'. is this understood, by 'you'?

Also, and blatantly obvious, IF 'God is ineffable', then there is NO way to "Know God".

Unless of course it's '' Simone Weil's '' knowing.

Does that person KNOW or SAY what 'God' IS, EXACTLY?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:48 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:47 am

"We can only know one thing about God - that he is what we are not. Our wretchedness alone is an image of this. The more we contemplate it, the more we contemplate him." Simone Weil

This is just too insulting for polite PC company. Think of the effect on self esteem. What to do with these people like this kid who said the emperor has no clothes? He was taken away never to be heard from again. Peace was restored.

My counter,
God is an Impossibility to be real
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

If the above, then God cannot be known to be real at all.

To 'know' is to have real knowledge.
What is real knowledge is Justified True Belief -JTB [Gettier aside].
The JTB with the most credible knowledge is the scientific JTB.
God that is believed based on faith cannot be known scientifically.
Therefore God cannot be known as real.

God nevertheless can be thought of as an idea-in-mind.
The idea of God is useful and VERY effective to deal with an inherent and unavoidable existential psychological issue.
But such usefulness of a God is a double-edged-sword which at end end had brought forth terrible sufferings, evil and violence to humans and will continue to do so in the future with the possibility of the extinction of the humans species [note Islam].

To prevent the very terrible evil and violence, it would be a net-positive to wean off totally the idea of God from all humans, thus there will be ZERO God-based evil and violence.
This can be done with replacing the idea of God with fool proof secular practices to deal with the inherent and unavoidable existential issue.

Your continual exhortation of the belief in God [illusory] [for personal selfish reason to deal with a psychological issue] is in a way complicit to the terrible evil and violence associated with a God.

Here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of just how much and just how strongly completely unsubstantiated ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS can lead one so far away from what thee ACTUAL Truth IS.