Page 1 of 5

What is God

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:14 pm
by Nick_A
This excerpt comes from Jacob Needleman's book: "What is God."
“To think about God is to the human soul what breathing is to the human body.

I say to think about God, not necessarily to believe in God–that may or may not come later.

I say: to think about God.” ~Jacob Needleman in What Is God? p. 3 mm


More and more, as I see it now, this heartless way of thinking about God and ultimate reality dominates the mind of the contemporary world. For God or against God, “belief” or “atheism,” it makes no difference unless the inner yearning— or whatever we wish to call the cause and source of the “second breathing” — is there. And it can so easily be there, just as it can so easily be covered over and ignored, perhaps for the rest of one’s life. God or not God, “belief” or “science” — it also makes no real difference for my personal life unless the call of the Self and its need to “breathe” is heard and, ultimately, respected. Not only can thought about ultimate reality make no difference to the world or to my personal life unless we hear and respect the call of the Self, but such empty thought can bring down our personal and collective world, even our Earth itself. When thought races ahead of Being, a civilization is racing toward destruction.
How many have felt the call of the self? The call of the self is not blind belief or blind denial experienced and expressed by our defense mechanisms. It is a call from the depth of our being we rarely ever experience; the need to be. It invites the second breath.

Can a society which denies the second breath in pursuit of the pleasures offered by technology survive its loss or will the obsession with empty thoughts destroy civilization? We will find out.

Re: What is God

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:54 pm
by Dontaskme
Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:14 pm
How many have felt the call of the self? The call of the self is not blind belief or blind denial experienced and expressed by our defense mechanisms. It is a call from the depth of our being we rarely ever experience; the need to be. It invites the second breath.

Can a society which denies the second breath in pursuit of the pleasures offered by technology survive its loss or will the obsession with empty thoughts destroy civilization? We will find out.
The need to be is a need that does not need to be.

Why impose a need to be that does not need to be. There are no benefits to coming into existence, whether you're a battery hen or a human born into a wealthy family. There are no problems with non-existence. Can you prove that bringing someone into existence is as perfectly harmless as non-existence. This place is teeming with torture, not only in the animal kingdom but in the minds of humans, so why would anyone need this unless they were a sadist. You see I'm a realist, I see the real raw truth of how things actually are. I've been there and done that and bought the T shirt, and it's nothing special at all. Don't get me wrong, I too have drank the cool aid, but in the end I saw that everything was fleeting, and just had to spit it all out and stop pretending I was having a good time. I saw that life tasted like crap, and that the cool aid was just something to cover up and mask the real brutality of real actual nature from filtering through to my mind.And so to deal with what to me was the real actual raw truth of nature I would artificially embelish this hostile dangerous experience of being alive by pretending there was a pleasurable part to this whole being alive experience, because even a fleeting pleasure would be better than natures true reality. So I put lipstick on this pig.

It wasn't until I became enlightened, that I saw the bigger picture, and that enlightenment to me meant seeing through the stupid game for what it really was, I started thinking why the fuck would this fucked up place of carnage and suffering ever be a need.
I was unborn for 14.7 billion years and can honestly say that had I never been born I would not be complaining, not one iota.

God is just a stupid idea that humans invent in order to make sense of thier existence in their deluded need to be important and to have a purpose, it's all just silly wishful thinking by something that just showed up a few seconds ago within the trillions of years of universal evolution. And this deluded something is now hopelessly addicted and totally obsessed with it's own deluded pleasurable image, and then inventing an idea called the second breath what ever the fuck that is, and so even that delusion becomes part of their self obsessed pleasure dome. For anything is better than actual reality which is the game of human existence which in my opinion is a very bad idea, and that the universe has zero intelligence for even coming up with the idea of allowing sentient feeling creatures to experience.

On a more serious note Nick, this is just my personal opinion, which I'm entitled to have since I'm already here having to experience this stupid game called life and having to endure the dangers it imposes day in and day out until death is my only relief and reward for all my pointless acomplishments and effort.





.

Re: What is God

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:58 pm
by Impenitent
no, what is on second

-Imp

Re: What is God

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:06 am
by Nick_A
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:54 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:14 pm
How many have felt the call of the self? The call of the self is not blind belief or blind denial experienced and expressed by our defense mechanisms. It is a call from the depth of our being we rarely ever experience; the need to be. It invites the second breath.

Can a society which denies the second breath in pursuit of the pleasures offered by technology survive its loss or will the obsession with empty thoughts destroy civilization? We will find out.
The need to be is a need that does not need to be.

Why impose a need to be that does not need to be. There are no benefits to coming into existence, whether you're a battery hen or a human born into a wealthy family. There are no problems with non-existence. Can you prove that bringing someone into existence is as perfectly harmless as non-existence. This place is teeming with torture, not only in the animal kingdom but in the minds of humans, so why would anyone need this unless they were a sadist. You see I'm a realist, I see the real raw truth of how things actually are. I've been there and done that and bought the T shirt, and it's nothing special at all. Don't get me wrong, I too have drank the cool aid, but in the end I saw that everything was fleeting, and just had to spit it all out and stop pretending I was having a good time. I saw that life tasted like crap, and that the cool aid was just something to cover up and mask the real brutality of real actual nature from filtering through to my mind.And so to deal with what to me was the real actual raw truth of nature I would artificially embelish this hostile dangerous experience of being alive by pretending there was a pleasurable part to this whole being alive experience, because even a fleeting pleasure would be better than natures true reality. So I put lipstick on this pig.

It wasn't until I became enlightened, that I saw the bigger picture, and that enlightenment to me meant seeing through the stupid game for what it really was, I started thinking why the fuck would this fucked up place of carnage and suffering ever be a need.
I was unborn for 14.7 billion years and can honestly say that had I never been born I would not be complaining, not one iota.

God is just a stupid idea that humans invent in order to make sense of thier existence in their deluded need to be important and to have a purpose, it's all just silly wishful thinking by something that just showed up a few seconds ago within the trillions of years of universal evolution. And this deluded something is now hopelessly addicted and totally obsessed with it's own deluded pleasurable image, and then inventing an idea called the second breath what ever the fuck that is, and so even that delusion becomes part of their self obsessed pleasure dome. For anything is better than actual reality which is the game of human existence which in my opinion is a very bad idea, and that the universe has zero intelligence for even coming up with the idea of allowing sentient feeling creatures to experience.

On a more serious note Nick, this is just my personal opinion, which I'm entitled to have since I'm already here having to experience this stupid game called life and having to endure the dangers it imposes day in and day out until death is my only relief and reward for all my pointless acomplishments and effort.
A meaningful post DAM. It is too much for one post so let me try to answer as we go along.

You wrote of the horrors for life on earth so why would anyone volunteer to be here in this meaningless existence. I agree. But the great paths like Buddhism and Christianity assert that there is a way out. But before getting into we would have to agree that that human being is a plurality rather than a unity. Chemistry describes it as a mixture rather than a solution. Can Man's being evolve from a mixture into a solution?
“Give me beauty in the inward soul; may the outward and the inward man be at one.” Socrates
Jacob Needleman describes the relationship between the inner and outer man in his book "Lost Christianity." through the idea of Acornology.
Acornology

I began my lecture that morning from just this point. There is an innate element in human nature, I argued that can grow and develop only through impressions of truth received in the organism like a special nourishing energy. To this innate element I gave a name - perhaps not a very good name - the "higher unconscious." My aim was to draw an extremely sharp distinction between the unconscious that Freud had identified and the unconscious referred to (though not by that name) in the Christian tradition.

Imagine, I said, that you are a scientist and you have before you the object known as the acorn. Let us further imagine that you have never before seen such an object and that you certainly do not know that it can grow into an oak. You carefully observe these acorns day after day and soon you notice that after a while they crack open and die. Pity! How to improve the acorn? So that it will live longer. You make careful, exquisitely precise chemical analyses of the material inside the acorn and, after much effort, you succeed in isolating the substance that controls the condition of the shell. Lo and behold, you are now in the position to produce acorns which will last far longer than the others, acorns whose shells will perhaps never crack. Beautiful!

The question before us, therefore, is whether or not modern psychology is only a version of acornology.
It is the inner man who needs to feel objective meaning and its relationship to its Source. The outer man or our personality feels the absurdity of normal life living as a plurality and the results of the human condition.

Our personalities live our life for us yet consciousness is an attribute of the inner Man. The idea is if we can become able to experience the inner man, then freedom from apparent absurdity could be possible. Do you agree that Man is a Plurality rather than a unified being?

Re: What is God

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:31 am
by Dontaskme
Nick_A wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:06 am
A meaningful post DAM.
Thanks Nick, I'm just being honest and seeing things the way they really are, I'm over trying to sugar coat this shitshow that is sentient life. Personally I wouldn't want it, but I am here now, not by choice either, I didn't have the choice to choose to be here. Choices were made by people who decided to get pregnant with me. Human people know how babies are made because knowledge is power, people then have choices whether to have children or not. Most people are insensitive and careless regarding the feelings of other sentient beings as long as they are ok and nothing awful is happening to them. But also, very often people don't really think too deeply about the impact of unforseen dire consequences, aka the risk of potential negative adverse circumstances that can lie in wait for every new life. They don't think about how terribly wrong and bad it can turn out for many. They don't think about the welfare of unborns, all they seem to think about is what's in it for them, or what do I want. Children are born out of their personal selfish need mostly. I myself have fallen into the same selfish trap by having my own children, and doing so before thinking the choice through properly. It's a choice I wouldn't make again knowing what I know now...but it's always too late unless we start to really think about how serious the choice to impose life on the unborn is.

If most people were just really honest and wise, they would think twice before imposing the harsh reality of life on another that is never in a position to consent or agree to being here. The fact that we as humans have the knowledge and wisdom to control birth from happening is more reason to ask ourselves is it actually worth the price of admission. I know many people who would say it is not, but I'm not speaking for everyone, this is just my personal opinion. I don't think we should play God here, we have no right to impose suffering on others if we don't have to. Buddha even said LIFE and attachment to it IS SUFFERING...so why would anyone desire this need to be over and over again is beyond my personal comprehension. Even if we do master the art of complete detachment from other people knowing they can suffer and then just having to endure the agony and helplessness of watching the ones we love and are attached to die, what's the point in that, might as well be dead then, it's all just seen as one big gigantic losing game, a pointless and silly struggle that we are just too stuborn and too offended to admit to ourselves.

Sorry about the rant, I always manage to have a lot to say about stuff like this...I could go on forever listing the endless reasons why life for sentient feeling beings is a very bad idea, but humans are so easily offended, so I'll try to minimise the actual real raw truth best I can, although I can't guarantee it.

Re: What is God

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:55 am
by Dontaskme
Nick_A wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:06 am It is the inner man who needs to feel objective meaning and its relationship to its Source. The outer man or our personality feels the absurdity of normal life living as a plurality and the results of the human condition.

Our personalities live our life for us yet consciousness is an attribute of the inner Man. The idea is if we can become able to experience the inner man, then freedom from apparent absurdity could be possible. Do you agree that Man is a Plurality rather than a unified being?
This inner man idea is a complete fallacy Nick. It's an escape route from the same brutal truth of the destiny for all sentient life on earth. But because the human meatball of a brain is somehow capable of thinking and imagination, which is just a programme put there by nature itself, this mental activity then makes up all kinds of stories of what's magically possible. But in reality, life is just pure raw pain and suffering and the universe doesn't care because no brain ever made this universe, the brain and it's imaginings are just phantom by-products of what is essentially a non-caring reality. Good feelings exist only because they are absent of bad, not because they are good, but because they are not bad, that's the way the brain seems to work, the brain/mind seems to spend it's fleeting alloted time here in existence desperately trying to avoid the bad...you can see this unfolding every single moment in nature.

I don't think Man is a plurity no. To me, man has no more importance here on earth than that of a mosquito. And that the idea that man likes to believe he has an inner self or a higher self is just more suffering upon himself when that belief is ultimatelty squashed dead upon awakening.

.

Re: What is God

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:11 pm
by Nick_A
DAM, there is nothing wrong with a sincere healthy rant. Problems begin with those who aren't sincere. We should question if there is any meaning to existence. Could we begin with the premise that we don't know what Man is? If we don't, all God speculations must be idolatry. If we are asleep to reality how can we proceed?
“There do exist enquiring minds, which long for the truth of the heart, seek it, strive to solve the problems set by life, try to penetrate to the essence of things and phenomena and to penetrate into themselves. If a man reasons and thinks soundly, no matter which path he follows in solving these problems, he must inevitably arrive back at himself, and begin with the solution of the problem of what he is himself and what his place is in the world around him.” G. I. Gurdjieff
Life is suffering. But is there any sense to it? Can we grow to understand it or are we doomed to a meaningless existence even though in some, the depths of their heart suggest something different? If the development of understanding rather than indoctrination begins with what human being is and why we are asleep to it, it seems sensible that we must be open to "know Thyself" or have the experience of oneself rather than the satisfaction of emotionally denying it. Can we intellectually and consciously verify what we are?

Re: What is God

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:48 pm
by Nick_A
DAM, I think you misunderstood what is meant by the inner man. The outer man refers to our personality or the patterns and habits we acquire in life.

The inner man refers to qualities we are born with. It doesn't mean what some new agers say about flying round Saturn. Society conditions and indoctrinates to react in accordance with subjective concepts of ethics. Conditioning is what inhibits the inner man from growing to reflect the essential need for meaning.

Read the beginning of Inner Empiricism. You are not the only one with sincere questions. Such people rise beyond egoistical argument.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Abstracts/Needle ... Dknowledge.

A friend of mine told me recently that all his life he had been interested in the meaning of things and, naturally, that led him to a study of philosophy. What he found there, he said, was one of the greatest disappointments of his life. Instead of tackling the exciting questions, most philosophers seemed to be snared in the problems of dissecting language, and probing the nuances of grammar and semi­arbitrary logic. There was no vitality in this work; it was all dry academic, intellectual gamesmanship. He was looking for philosophers who, as he said, "really care about reality"; who would apply their philosophical training to help cut through the intellectual morass, clarify methodologies, and get back to the relationship between reality and experience. He very kindly described me as one of those philosophers who "really cares about reality".

As it happens, I believe there is a growing number of younger philosophers who are interested in getting to the heart of the matter--about what we mean by "reality" and the central role of experience. What draws them, and what originally drew me, to the whole area of philosophy is a quest for meaning. I discovered that the mind by itself cannot complete the philosophic quest. As Kant decisively argued, the mind can ask questions the mind alone cannot answer. For me, this is where the juice of real philosophical investigation begins to flow. I believe it is precisely where intellect hits its limits that the important questions of philosophy start to come alive.

Mainstream academic philosophy has for a long time tried to answer these fundamental questions with that part of the mind we call intellect. Frequently the difficulties encountered were so great, the logical tangles so confusing, that many philosophers decided such questions were meaningless, and some even began to ridicule anyone who dared ask "What is reality?" "What is the meaning of life?" "Is there life after death?" "What is the soul?" "Does God exist?" Yet these are the questions of the heart. These are the questions that matter most to people--not whether the syntax and deep structures of our language can ever truly represent real knowledge. The meaningful questions, these " questions of the heart", rise up in human beings because of something intrinsic to our nature, an innate striving which Plato called Eros.

One aspect of this is the striving to participate in a reality greater than ourselves. It is a yearning, a hunger, a force we may recognize as love. This drive is as much, if not more, a part of our nature as the sexual, physical and animal desires which psychoanalysis and mainstream psychiatry have identified as parts of our essential nature. Our drive for understanding, for participation in a higher reality, shapes our psyche as much as anything else.

But what can the mind do with this deep participatory urge? Even at its most brilliant, the intellect alone can only ask questions that skim the surface of Eros; it cannot answer these questions. Yet such questions--the meaning of life, the nature of the soul--need to be answered. If intellect is not up to the job, how can we penetrate these mysteries? The solution, I'm proposing, is that we can only extend the reach of intellect through experience. There is a certain type of experience that opens up the mind, expands our consciousness, and allows us to approach answers to many of these fundamental questions.

In this sense, as a philosopher who cares about questions of the heart, I'm essentially a student of consciousness. I'm talking about certain kinds of experiences that we have spontaneously as human beings, but which are all too uncommon and which are not valued or understood within our culture. But when they are approached from another angle, one sees that these experiences really point to an aspect of the mind, of the psyche, beyond reason and intellect. And they do more than that: They also point to the object of those experiences, that is, to a fundamental reality. These experiences present us with an alternative or complementary way of knowing the world around us as well as the world inside us. The philosophical approach I'm talking about values these "questions of the heart" as invitations to experience, as well as to cogitations of the cerebral intellect.

Appearances or Reality?

Re: What is God

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:05 pm
by Dontaskme
Nick_A wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:11 pm DAM, there is nothing wrong with a sincere healthy rant. Problems begin with those who aren't sincere. We should question if there is any meaning to existence. Could we begin with the premise that we don't know what Man is? If we don't, all God speculations must be idolatry. If we are asleep to reality how can we proceed?
Proceed to what or where though?

Evolution is finished, it's on the reverse, life is devolving now not evolving. Evolution had to be the begining of the end of all sentient life. That we can observe now, creatures are declining and disappearing one by one, and we are somewhere in line to be next no doubt.
The whole bigger picture has to be like one massive assembly line from creation to destruction surely, just as the body is born just so it can die.
“There do exist enquiring minds, which long for the truth of the heart, seek it, strive to solve the problems set by life, try to penetrate to the essence of things and phenomena and to penetrate into themselves. If a man reasons and thinks soundly, no matter which path he follows in solving these problems, he must inevitably arrive back at himself, and begin with the solution of the problem of what he is himself and what his place is in the world around him.” G. I. Gurdjieff
The enquiring mind is a myth though, it's only existence is within the dream of separation, also a myth.

This quote just talks about seeking solutions to imaginary problems which is all just rather silly nonsense and babble we like to feed the ego, aka the believing brain. The material body is not really interested in such fantasy and imagination.
Nick_A wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:11 pmLife is suffering. But is there any sense to it? Can we grow to understand it or are we doomed to a meaningless existence even though in some, the depths of their heart suggest something different?
But we were apes just a few seconds ago, now we seem to think we are important apes who can think up all sorts of reasons to believe we are the centre of the universe and that the whole universe was invented just so that we could strut our stuff on centre stage. It's a nice idea, but in reality it's a ludicrous idea, in my opinion. The only thing going for the human being was that it is able to awaken from the dream of separation to realise it's non-existent separate form. And that there is here only oneness and none separation from all the other sentient conscious creatures out there. Why are we so special? ...were not, it just feels like we are different because nature evolved us the capacity to communicate a language that became a conceptually known world of knowledge. But this knowledge is just a story that the believing brain thinks is literally real, when it's nothing more than a mirage in the desert of pure mysterious not knowing empty presence.

Nick_A wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:11 pmIf the development of understanding rather than indoctrination begins with what human being is and why we are asleep to it, it seems sensible that we must be open to "know Thyself" or have the experience of oneself rather than the satisfaction of emotionally denying it. Can we intellectually and consciously verify what we are?
We can't know anything about who or what we are except what we happen to label as such. But the label comes from the exact same place as our not-knowingness, and this is the dilemma of the assumed thinking sentient creature, it can never get beyond it's own self imposed conceptual mind maps, it's stuck in a world of it's own creation, it knows nothing of anything outside or beyond it's own imagined arena.

.

Re: What is God

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:04 pm
by Nick_A
DAM
Evolution is finished, it's on the reverse, life is devolving now not evolving. Evolution had to be the begining of the end of all sentient life. That we can observe now, creatures are declining and disappearing one by one, and we are somewhere in line to be next no doubt.
The whole bigger picture has to be like one massive assembly line from creation to destruction surely, just as the body is born just so it can die.
I agree that the evolution of the human animal is complete. The cycle of life begins with birth and ends in death. But the assertion of all the great traditions initiating with a conscious source is that our species is capable of making the transition from mechanical animal evolution into conscious evolution. But before verifying it a person has to have made efforts to know thyself rather than imagining oneself.
We can't know anything about who or what we are except what we happen to label as such. But the label comes from the exact same place as our not-knowingness, and this is the dilemma of the assumed thinking sentient creature, it can never get beyond it's own self imposed conceptual mind maps, it's stuck in a world of it's own creation, it knows nothing of anything outside or beyond it's own imagined arena.
But maybe we can know ourselves. You say there is only oneness but suppose this is just a way to make life tolerable. If we are asleep in Plato's cave how can we verify? We have to "awaken." The first step is admitting our helpless position that life as we experience it is meaningless.

Plato defined Man as a being in search of meaning. Are you open to the idea that the being of Man could consciously evolve so that Man's objective meaning and purpose could be consciously remembered even though as we are, restricted to animal reactions, it appears meaningless; a useless imaginary encounter.

Can we get beyond what you've described as assumed thinking? From the Jacob Needleman essay"
Appearances or Reality?

This is an unconventional approach to philosophy in our culture. Yet it is one that can throw light on many of the great classic questions of philosophy. For example, "Is the world real, or only a construct of appearances?" Behind the appearances presented to us by our senses, is there a real world? And if so, how can we ever know it? These problems have been argued over for centuries, often brilliantly; and nobody has argued better or more cleverly about these points than Immanuel Kant. There are many ways of looking at the issue; and what we find is a shifting mosaic of appearances depending on our point of view.

What I want to emphasize is that once we begin to take seriously the potential capacity of the human mind for other kinds of experiences--for other states of consciousness--and develop the proper language and understanding, we discover that the whole question of appearance versus reality itself shifts. Once we begin to realize that there is a selfhood that is more real, under what we usually call "my self ", we come to recognize that not only do we live in a world of appearances outside, we also live in an internal world of appearances.

At this point, the whole issue gets really interesting. Now we see that in order to know the world behind external appearances, we have to get behind the appearances of our inner world. The only way to gain real knowledge of the outer world is by penetrating the appearances of the inner world. Thus, if I want to know the numinous, the thing­in­itself, I need to activate that instrument in myself that is capable of perceiving it. This is the very "instrument" that Kant proved, so he believed, did not exist..........................
What I am saying is that you condemn the world of external appearance as meaningless suffering. But if our being promotes the internal world of appearance we cannot experience reality so our conclusions are also meaningless. Can we activate the instrument in myself Jacob Needleman speaks of in order to experience the thinginitself or the world behind external appearance?

Re: What is God

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:19 am
by Dontaskme
Nick..I'm just not swinging from the same branch as you. You are of course welcome to your own personal visions for humanity, I have no argument with you because your mental map will manifest a reality according to your own unique perceptions, and beliefs about it . :D

The terminology ''Awakening'' to me, just means, this 'me' is seen for what it actually is, this 'me' is an idea being observed, which can and does disappear leaving only what can be described as blank pure immediate presence (not-knowingness )....and while the idea of 'me' is conceptually known... this 'known idea' is just an overlay upon what is ultimately always and ever just this blank screen of pure not-knowing presence that cannot be known conceptually.

Now the irony here is that there can be no such thing as a not-knowingness aka nondual state...therefore this not-knowingness can be nothing other than the ONLY knowing there is, which cannot be known. I know this sounds totally nonsensical ..but this is the actual truth of the matter which baffles the seeking mind. People really do not like to hear this, but the hypothesis in the end all boils down to self-observation and clear observation of reality...via direct experience.

And so within this immediate unknown presence, there come and goes many APPEARANCES which are known....these appearances, are namely called ISness or 'what is' which can all be observed by that which can never be known. And is why that which is known as appearances only, can never be ''Sourced'' ...why? because they are manifestations of a perceived imagination. What is a perceived imagination? I have absolutely no idea Nick. All that there is here are human opinions which are all based on faith calling it truth. They think they know the truth Nick. We're all just wannabe scientists here trying to know truth Nick....That's all I know Nick.
_________

'' Because science is our only real way of knowing anything, what science cannot know cannot be real."

- Philip E. Johnson


.

Re: What is God

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:21 am
by Dontaskme
Nick_A wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:48 pm
Appearances or Reality?
Both are the same reality.

The point of human awakening, is to deconstruct the world of external things to see the things for what they really are...which are just mental images of the imageless, they are simple projections of nothing appearing as everything, simply, nothing and everything, everything and nothing at the same time.

There's no more to this than that simple realisation.

Nothing is going anywhere, there is nowhere for nothing to go, everything is just here in one place, the only place there is.

Where ever you go, there you are, there is nothing outside of this arena.

Everything known is a mental dream. And nothing really happens in a dream.

And the dream is all there is.


.

Re: What is God

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:20 pm
by Nick_A
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:21 am
Nick_A wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:48 pm
Appearances or Reality?
Both are the same reality.

The point of human awakening, is to deconstruct the world of external things to see the things for what they really are...which are just mental images of the imageless, they are simple projections of nothing appearing as everything, simply, nothing and everything, everything and nothing at the same time.

There's no more to this than that simple realisation.

Nothing is going anywhere, there is nowhere for nothing to go, everything is just here in one place, the only place there is.

Where ever you go, there you are, there is nothing outside of this arena.

Everything known is a mental dream. And nothing really happens in a dream.

And the dream is all there is.

'' Because science is our only real way of knowing anything, what science cannot know cannot be real."

- Philip E. Johnson
You believe that there is nothing real. There is only a blank screen beyond opinion. Plato suggests that beyond opinion there is knowledge of forms all existing within the ineffable Source.
http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/plato1.htm

Using a line for illustration, Plato divides human knowledge into four grades or levels, differing in their degree of clarity and truth. First, imagine a line divided into two sections of unequal length (Figure 1, hash mark C). The upper level corresponds to Knowledge, and is the realm of Intellect. The lower level corresponds to Opinion, and concerns the world of sensory experience. Plato says only that the sections are of "unequal" length, but the conventional view is that the Knowledge section is the longer one.

Then bisect each of these sections (hash marks B and D). This produces four line segments, corresponding to four cognitive states and/or modes of thinking. From highest to lowest, these are:

noesis (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)
dianoia (discursive thought)
pistis (belief or confidence)
eikasia (delusion or sheer conjecture)
You do not accept relative qualities of consciousness. Plato's description groups these qualities beginning with imagination. Eikasia and pistis are imaginary but discursive thought is the beginning of intellectual understanding. Can it open the door to noesis and intuition; the inner vertical direction leading to understanding and our source?

This is where we disagree. For you there is nothing but imagination in front of a blank screen and I side with Plato in accepting relative degrees of consciousness. Can we verify our positions?

What is the difference between knowing and understanding? Understanding is what we do. I can know what cold is but in order to understand it I must simultaneously have an intellectual knowledge of what the experience of cold is, feel if I like it or not, and experience it as a sensation in order to understand cold. Feeling and sensing are easily confused. I can say "I feel cold" when I really men "I sense cold."

This isn't so easy which is why we remain lost in imagination. We have to learn to experience both the external world and our inner world with the whole of ourselves. If we cannot we lack understanding

How can you be sure there is nothing above Plato's divided line? Perhaps the truth Man seeks can only be known at the intellectual realm Above the line and not the apparent meaninglessness below the line. The seeker of truth doesn't deny the qualities of consciousness above the line but strives to be open to them

Re: What is God

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:04 am
by Dontaskme
The dream is real Nick, apparently! ....illusions are real.

There is nothing else happening here...

Nick, Plato, these are just ideas, mere story characters within the dream.

Permanent is an illusion. Temporary is the reality.

Nothing is Permanent.



Image


Image

Re: What is God

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:01 am
by Dontaskme
Nick, just so you know, I used to be very positive and optimistic about the idea of a God. I've written many topics about that many times here on this very forum.

Up until I had my final awakening, an epiphany that totally blew my mind, the shock and awe ripped away the rose coloured glasses I used to wear with pride, only to see what is God. What God really is, and not what I wishfully hoped God is.

First of all, I've always believed that reality is everything and nothing simultaneously.

So for me personally, If God is just another label for everything and nothing, then God is a dumb stupid game player. Life or nature or God or whatever we want to call reality, to me, is just one pointless, needless, endless cycle of suffering for nothing. There is no positive utility. Life is not beautiful or good. The idea of ( Good ) only arises when life is sensed to be absent of ( BAD ) and so it's certainly not because there is a fundamental GOODNESS in reality, far from it. There is nothing whatsoever good or beautiful about natures sadistic murdering killing machine, nature is an endless serial killer intent on spreading as much pain disease destruction suffering and misery upon everything it touches, nature is out to get you. It doesn't care.
Nature, which is just another word for God is creating needs and then satisfying them, all of which accomplishes nothing. All these cycles are dumb and pointless. Sentient life is a dead end. Life is inherently cruel for no specific reason or purpose. Humans are in my opinion, hopelessly addicted to this game sadly, who are mostly out of touch with the actual reality of what's really happening here, because they are blinded and seduced by the shiny trinkets ..it's a deluded trick of the brain, a trap we fall for, hook line and sinker. Until you WAKE UP... and when you really wake up from this delusion ...is when you want the fuck out fast. Intelligent people see this actual truth, dumb people just go on ignoring it.


.