Philosophy Now Forum

A Muslim is one who had signed a contract with Allah, where all the relevant contractual terms are in the Quran and no where else.

Whatever Islamic issues that are to be considered/discussed by Muslims or non-Muslims, like a good lawyer, the first imperative consideration is to remind oneself of the terms of the contract the Muslim had signed with Allah. Then one must ensure the discussion is confined within the terms of the Muslim's contract with Allah and nowhere else.

Here is an interesting article on the subject:
https://submission.org/friday_covenant_trade.html

• The Muslim’s Covenant with God
  A true believer in God is constantly conscious about the covenant made with God to love Him the most, worship Him alone, and devote all his/her worship, life and death to Him alone.
  
  A true believer in God fully understands that he/she is bound by that covenant or "contract".
  
  He/she fulfills that covenant in absolute submission, truthfulness and diligence and in total adoration for God and dedication for serving Him alone, under all circumstances.
  
  Nothing, absolutely nothing, besides the clear "agreement terms" listed and detailed in Quran would tempt him/her to waver or violate that covenant with the Most Gracious.
  
  The self determination and firmness in carrying out all of God's commands, and
  abiding by all the "terms" of that "contract"/covenant with God
  -are all that defines a faithful, sincere and certain believer and
  -all that brings real dignity and honor in this life and in the Hereafter.

• [Quran 48:10] Surely, those who pledge allegiance to you (يُبايِعونَكَ), are pledging allegiance (يُبايِعونَ) to God. God approves their pledge; He places His hand above their hands. Those who violate such a pledge, commit the violation to their own detriment. As for those who fulfill their pledge with God, He will grant them a great recompense.
  
  [Quran 9:111] God has bought /اشتَرىٰ from the believers their lives and their money in exchange for Paradise. Thus, they fight in the cause of God, willing to kill and get killed. Such is His truthful pledge in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran - and who fulfills His pledge better than God? You shall rejoice in making such an exchange (بِبَيعِكُمُ). This is the greatest triumph.

The above Arabic words in between parentheses, "yubayeuonaka", "yubayeuona" and "bi-bayekum", translated as "pledge, pledging or an exchange", are from the root ba ya eyn which gives all the derivatives for "an executed trading transaction or deal".
When a buyer-seller deal is made, a hand shake is usually a sign and an act for being committed to fulfill the promise and execute the sale.
Valuing the commitment to that agreement between the involved parties to close and fulfill that trading transaction, the word is often used in stylish Arabic literature to indicate pledges, oaths or covenants.
That's how God has used that root for three derivatives in the above verses.

Besides the honor of having "God's hand shake; He places His hand above their hands", we also have the absolute assertiveness of the validity of the trading contract/covenant with God; exchanging our life time on earth, striving for His cause, and no one else, with the eternal bliss of Paradise.

The terms of the contract are precisely listed and detailed in Quran.
We are reminded with that same contract or covenant or pledge in other verses when God initially covenanted Adam in high society, but, unfortunately, Adam did not have the self determination and strength of faith to fulfill such a covenant.
Apparently, the entire human race, went through the same failure (7:172-174).
We all came down to earth because of God's mercy for a second and final chance (45:22, 90:4).
Are we going to break the covenant, over and over, or we will uphold it firmly and decisively this time?.


...................................

• [Quran 20:115] We tested (عَهِدنا/covenanted in Arabic text) Adam in the past, but he forgot, and we found him indecisive (عَزمًا/ had no self determination and firmness in upholding his covenant).
  
  [Quran 36:60] Did I not covenant with you, O Children of Adam, that you shall not worship the devil? That he is your most ardent enemy?
  
  [Quran 36:61] And that you shall worship Me alone? This is the right path.
  
  [Quran 16:91] You shall fulfill your covenant with God when you make such a covenant. You shall not violate the oaths after swearing (by God) to carry them out, for you have made God a guarantor for you. God knows everything you do.
  
  [Quran 17:34] You shall not touch the orphans' money except for their own good, until they reach maturity. You shall fulfill your covenants, for a covenant is a great responsibility.

In addition to the straightforward reminders in Quran about our covenant with God to devote our lives for Him alone, God also narrates the true history of some of the previous generations to guide us through the right precedents (3:137, 4:26).

Believers heed the guidance and appreciate the reminders as empowering force so they make the right decisions and avoid repeating the same mistakes of others.

• [Quran 7:101] We narrate to you the history of those communities: their messengers went to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe in what they had rejected before. God thus seals the hearts of the disbelievers.
  
  [Quran 7:102] We found that most of them disregard their covenant; we found most of them wicked.
  
  [Quran 2:40] O Children of Israel, remember My favor, which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your part of the covenant, that I fulfill My part of the covenant, and reverence Me.
  
  [Quran 2:41] You shall believe in what I have revealed herein, confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price, and observe Me.
  
  [Quran 4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us God, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.
  
  [Quran 4:154] And we raised Mount Sinai above them, as we took their covenant. And we said to them, "Enter the gate humbly." And we said to them, "Do not desecrate the Sabbath." Indeed, we took from them a solemn covenant.
  
  [Quran 4:155] (They incurred condemnation) for violating their covenant, rejecting God's revelations, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying, "Our minds are made up!" In fact, God is the One who sealed their minds, due to their disbelief, and this is why they fail to believe, except rarely.

Our human weakness is demonstrated in the above narrated history.
It is clear that it is very hard for us, humans, to keep our word and fulfill our promises.
Even with such an unappreciative behavior, God watches over us.
But we continue to betray Him, and we continue violating our covenants with Him.
He forgives us when we repent, and showers us with His proofs, guidance and provisions, but we do not give His sacred teachings the due attention and we do not estimate His warnings as they should be estimated.
We dig out our graves by our own hands, and incur the consequences of our wrong choices that are always resulting from a covenant with God that we violate:

• [Quran 9:38] O you who believe, when you are told, "Mobilize in the cause of God," why do you become heavily attached to the ground? Have you chosen this worldly life in place of the Hereafter? The materials of this world, compared to the Hereafter, are nil.
  
  [Quran 9:39] Unless you mobilize, He will commit you to painful retribution and substitute other people in your place; you can never hurt Him in the least. God is Omnipotent.
  
  [Quran 9:16] Did you think that you will be left alone without God distinguishing those among you who strive, and never ally themselves with God's enemies, or the enemies of His messenger, or the enemies of the believers? God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

When God calls for fighting in His cause, for the legitimate terms and conditions He precisely listed and detailed in Quran, the HYPOCRITES and those who ARE IGNORANT about God's teachings would set back and call for "peace" and "unity" or come up with flimsy and invalid excuses to stay behind.

Wavering to mobilize (being heavily attached to ground as stated in 9:38) is an unbalanced concern about this lowly and materialistic life and therefore a sign of a weak faith.
Allying ourselves with idol worshipers and hypocrites is a betrayal of God's covenant, and of those who believe.

COWARDLY and APATHETICALLY disowning the truth by not proclaiming or supporting what we know is the truth from God is also a violation of God's covenant in exchange of earthly gains like political powers, social advantages, friendship, material profits etc...
All these are clear examples of how Satan sets the trap for us.

• [Quran 4:143] They waver in between, neither belonging to this group, nor that group. Whomever God sends astray, you will never find a way to guide him.
  
  [Quran 4:144] O you who believe, you shall not ally yourselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Do you wish to provide God with a clear proof against you?
  
  [Quran 4:145] The hypocrites will be committed to the lowest pit of Hell, and you will find no one to help them.
  
  [Quran 9:44] Those who truly believe in God and the Last Day do not ask your permission to evade the opportunity to strive with their money and their lives. God is fully aware of the righteous.
  
  [Quran 9:45] The only people who wish to be excused are those who do not really believe in God and the Last Day. Their hearts are full of doubt, and their doubts cause them to waver.
  
  [Quran 30:29] Indeed, the transgressors have followed their own opinions, without knowledge. Who then can guide those who have been sent astray by God? No one can ever help them.
  
  [Quran 47:34] Those who disbelieve and repel from the path of God, then die as disbelievers, God will never forgive them.
  
  [Quran 47:35] Therefore, you shall not waver and surrender in pursuit of peace, for you are guaranteed victory, and God is with you. He will never waste your efforts.
  
  [Quran 3:187] God took a covenant from those who received the scripture: "You shall proclaim it to the people, and never conceal it." But they disregarded it behind their backs, and traded it away for a cheap price. What a miserable trade.

In conclusion, a true believer in God is constantly conscious about the covenant made with God to love Him the most, worship Him alone, and devote all his/her worship, life and death to Him alone.

A true believer in God fully understands that he/she is bound by that covenant or "contract".

He/she fulfills that covenant in absolute submission, truthfulness and diligence and in total adoration for God and dedication for serving Him alone, under all circumstances.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, besides the clear "agreement terms" listed and detailed in Quran would tempt him/her to waver or violate that covenant with the Most Gracious.

The self determination and firmness in carrying out all of God's commands, and
abiding by all the "terms" of that "contract"/covenant with God
-are all that defines a faithful, sincere and certain believer and
-all that brings real dignity and honor in this life and in the Hereafter.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:15 am A Muslim is one who had signed a contract with Allah, where all the relevant contractual terms are in the Quran and no where else.

And WHERE EXACTLY did they, supposedly, "sign"?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:15 am Whatever Islamic issues that are to be considered/discussed by Muslims or non-Muslims, like a good lawyer, the first imperative consideration is to remind oneself of the terms of the contract the Muslim had signed with Allah. Then one must ensure the discussion is confined within the terms of the Muslim's contract with Allah and nowhere else.

Here is an interesting article on the subject:
https://submission.org/friday_covenant_trade.html

• The Muslim’s Covenant with God
  A true believer in God is constantly conscious about the covenant made with God to love Him the most, worship Him alone, and devote all his/her worship, life and death to Him alone.
  
  A true believer in God fully understands that he/she is bound by that covenant or "contract".
  
  He/she fulfills that covenant in absolute submission, truthfulness and diligence and in total adoration for God and dedication for serving Him alone, under all circumstances.
  
  Nothing, absolutely nothing, besides the clear "agreement terms" listed and detailed in Quran would tempt him/her to waver or violate that covenant with the Most Gracious.
  
  The self determination and firmness in carrying out all of God's commands, and
  abiding by all the "terms" of that "contract"/covenant with God
  -are all that defines a faithful, sincere and certain believer and
  -all that brings real dignity and honor in this life and in the Hereafter.

All sounds well and good, so far.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:18 am

• [Quran 7:101] We narrate to you the history of those communities: their messengers went to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe in what they had rejected before. God thus seals the hearts of the disbelievers.
  
  [Quran 7:102] We found that most of them disregard their covenant; we found most of them wicked.
  
  [Quran 2:40] O Children of Israel, remember My favor, which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your part of the covenant, that I fulfill My part of the covenant, and reverence Me.
  
  [Quran 2:41] You shall believe in what I have revealed herein, confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price, and observe Me.
  
  [Quran 4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us God, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.
  
  [Quran 4:154] And we raised Mount Sinai above them, as we took their covenant. And we said to them, "Enter the gate humbly." And we said to them, "Do not desecrate the Sabbath." Indeed, we took from them a solemn covenant.
  
  [Quran 4:155] (They incurred condemnation) for violating their covenant, rejecting God's revelations, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying, "Our minds are made up!" In fact, God is the One who sealed their minds, due to their disbelief, and this is why they fail to believe, except rarely.

Our human weakness is demonstrated in the above narrated history.
It is clear that it is very hard for us, humans, to keep our word and fulfill our promises.
Even with such an unappreciative behavior, God watches over us.
But we continue to betray Him, and we continue violating our covenants with Him.
He forgives us when we repent, and showers us with His proofs, guidance and provisions, but we do not give His sacred teachings the due attention and we do not estimate His warnings as they should be estimated.
We dig out our graves by our own hands, and incur the consequences of our wrong choices that are always resulting from a covenant with God that we violate:

• [Quran 9:38] O you who believe, when you are told, "Mobilize in the cause of God," why do you become heavily attached to the ground? Have you chosen this worldly life in place of the Hereafter? The materials of this world, compared to the Hereafter, are nil.
  
  [Quran 9:39] Unless you mobilize, He will commit you to painful retribution and substitute other people in your place; you can never hurt Him in the least. God is Omnipotent.
  
  [Quran 9:16] Did you think that you will be left alone without God distinguishing those among you who strive, and never ally themselves with God's enemies, or the enemies of His messenger, or the enemies of the believers? God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

When God calls for fighting in His cause, for the legitimate terms and conditions He precisely listed and detailed in Quran, the HYPOCRITES and those who ARE IGNORANT about God's teachings would set back and call for "peace" and "unity" or come up with flimsy and invalid excuses to stay behind.

Wavering to mobilize (being heavily attached to ground as stated in 9:38) is an unbalanced concern about this lowly and materialistic life and therefore a sign of a weak faith.
Allying ourselves with idol worshipers and hypocrites is a betrayal of God's covenant, and of those who believe.

COWARDLY and APATHETICALLY disowning the truth by not proclaiming or supporting what we know is the truth from God is also a violation of God's covenant in exchange of earthly gains like political powers, social advantages, friendship, material profits etc...
All these are clear examples of how Satan sets the trap for us.

Again, all well and good, so far. ALL of this makes PERFECT SENSE.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:18 am

• [Quran 7:101] We narrate to you the history of those communities: their messengers went to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe in what they had rejected before. God thus seals the hearts of the disbelievers.
  
  [Quran 7:102] We found that most of them disregard their covenant; we found most of them wicked.
  
  [Quran 2:40] O Children of Israel, remember My favor, which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your part of the covenant, that I fulfill My part of the covenant, and reverence Me.
  
  [Quran 2:41] You shall believe in what I have revealed herein, confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price, and observe Me.
  
  [Quran 4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us God, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.
  
  [Quran 4:154] And we raised Mount Sinai above them, as we took their covenant. And we said to them, "Enter the gate humbly." And we said to them, "Do not desecrate the Sabbath." Indeed, we took from them a solemn covenant.
  
  [Quran 4:155] (They incurred condemnation) for violating their covenant, rejecting God's revelations, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying, "Our minds are made up!" In fact, God is the One who sealed their minds, due to their disbelief, and this is why they fail to believe, except rarely.

Our human weakness is demonstrated in the above narrated history.
It is clear that it is very hard for us, humans, to keep our word and fulfill our promises.
Even with such an unappreciative behavior, God watches over us.
But we continue to betray Him, and we continue violating our covenants with Him.
He forgives us when we repent, and showers us with His proofs, guidance and provisions, but we do not give His sacred teachings the due attention and we do not estimate His warnings as they should be estimated.
We dig out our graves by our own hands, and incur the consequences of our wrong choices that are always resulting from a covenant with God that we violate:

• [Quran 9:38] O you who believe, when you are told, "Mobilize in the cause of God," why do you become heavily attached to the ground? Have you chosen this worldly life in place of the Hereafter? The materials of this world, compared to the Hereafter, are nil.
  
  [Quran 9:39] Unless you mobilize, He will commit you to painful retribution and substitute other people in your place; you can never hurt Him in the least. God is Omnipotent.
  
  [Quran 9:16] Did you think that you will be left alone without God distinguishing those among you who strive, and never ally themselves with God's enemies, or the enemies of His messenger, or the enemies of the believers? God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

When God calls for fighting in His cause, for the legitimate terms and conditions He precisely listed and detailed in Quran, the HYPOCRITES and those who ARE IGNORANT about God's teachings would set back and call for "peace" and "unity" or come up with flimsy and invalid excuses to stay behind.

Wavering to mobilize (being heavily attached to ground as stated in 9:38) is an unbalanced concern about this lowly and materialistic life and therefore a sign of a weak faith.
Allying ourselves with idol worshipers and hypocrites is a betrayal of God's covenant, and of those who believe.

COWARDLY and APATHETICALLY disowning the truth by not proclaiming or supporting what we know is the truth from God is also a violation of God's covenant in exchange of earthly gains like political powers, social advantages, friendship, material profits etc...
All these are clear examples of how Satan sets the trap for us.

Imagine a world where EVERY one was a 'muslim', or a 'follower of' PEACE, and submitted solely to PEACE?

How GREAT and WONDROUS that would Truly BE.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:51 pm Imagine a world where EVERY one was a 'muslim', or a 'follower of' PEACE, and submitted solely to PEACE?

How GREAT and WONDROUS that would Truly BE.

Yes! If they are all Sufis. I can't be doing with all this monotheistic lawyers stuff about contracts. It's all metaphorical.

The idea God wants us to sign a contract is clearly anthropomorphism running riot. The idea that God wants anything at all is plainly ridiculous.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:09 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:51 pm Imagine a world where EVERY one was a 'muslim', or a 'follower of' PEACE, and submitted solely to PEACE?

How GREAT and WONDROUS that would Truly BE.

Yes! If they are all Sufis.

If the word 'muslim' means follower of Peace, then what does the word 'sufis' mean?

PeteJ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:09 am I can't be doing with all this monotheistic lawyers stuff about contracts. It's all metaphorical.

The idea God wants us to sign a contract is clearly anthropomorphism running riot.

People will 'try' absolutely ANY thing, which they hope will back up and support their ALREADY HELD BELIEFS.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:09 am The idea that God wants anything at all is plainly ridiculous.

Would God not want to be listened to, and heard?

Would God not want to be recognized and accepted for who and what God, actually, IS?

Age wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 am If the word 'muslim' means follower of Peace, then what does the word 'sufis' mean?

The etymology is debated but it might come from the wool cloth worn by the Sufis. It is mysticism or the Perennial philosophy in Islamic clothing. For the mystic Mohammed is another teacher like Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tsu etc.

People will 'try' absolutely ANY thing, which they hope will back up and support their ALREADY HELD BELIEFS.

Amen to that.

Would God not want to be listened to, and heard?

Would God not want to be recognized and accepted for who and what God, actually, IS?

These questions assume God is a person and separate from other persons. The idea that God could spend all eternity wanting to be listened to, heard, accepted and recognised is common but I can make no sense of it. Very few people would define God so as to incorprate any lack, need or desire.

The Sufi view would be that the joy that is generated by acceptance and recognition etc. belongs to the person doing the recognising and accepting. This would be God's joy in a manner of speaking, because the person partakes in God as joy and all persons are God. Joy and happiness would consist in unity with God, or in in non-theistics terms union with Reality,

Very roughty-speaking the Sufis are to Islam as the Christian mystics are to Christianity, having more in common with each other than with their associated Church.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am

Age wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 am If the word 'muslim' means follower of Peace, then what does the word 'sufis' mean?

The etymology is debated but it might come from the wool cloth worn by the Sufis. It is mysticism or the Perennial philosophy in Islamic clothing. For the mystic Mohammed is another teacher like Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tsu etc.

People will 'try' absolutely ANY thing, which they hope will back up and support their ALREADY HELD BELIEFS.

Amen to that.

Would God not want to be listened to, and heard?

Would God not want to be recognized and accepted for who and what God, actually, IS?

These questions assume God is a person and separate from other persons.

These question did NOT assume this at all.

In fact the very opposite could be said.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am The idea that God could spend all eternity wanting to be listened to, heard, accepted and recognised is common but I can make no sense of it.

This is because you do NOT YET KNOW what God actually IS, correct?

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am Very few people would define God so as to incorprate any lack, need or desire.

'Lack', need, or 'desire' are also NOT what 'want' is.

I also have NOT defined God so as to incorporate any lack, need, or desire.

I just asked some CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, from a Truly OPEN perspective, and therefore without ANY ASSUMPTIONS at all.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am The Sufi view would be that the joy that is generated by acceptance and recognition etc. belongs to the person doing the recognising and accepting.

But what is the person actually recognizing and accepting, et cetera?

Surely if the 'thing', which is being recognized and accepted, was being recognized and accepted for what 'it' Truly IS, then the joy for the person doing the recognizing and accepting would even be HIGHER, correct?

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am This would be God's joy in a manner of speaking, because the person partakes in God as joy and all persons are God.

If all 'persons' are God, then is this individually or collectively?

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am Joy and happiness would consist in unity with God, or in in non-theistics terms union with Reality,

Unity with God, or union with Reality, may be the EXACT SAME thing. But, recognizing and accepting, or KNOWING what Reality, or God, Truly IS in a UNIFIED manner with and by EVERY one, EQUALLY, would be a MORE joyous and happier occasion for EVERY one, correct?

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am Very roughty-speaking the Sufis are to Islam as the Christian mystics are to Christianity, having more in common with each other than with their associated Church.

I am not yet sure of what, so called, "christian mystics" are exactly nor how "they" are supposed to be to "christianity".

Age wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:32 pm These question did NOT assume this at all.

In fact the very opposite could be said.

Okay. My bad.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am

The idea that God could spend all eternity wanting to be listened to, heard, accepted and recognised is common but I can make no sense of it.

This is because you do NOT YET KNOW what God actually IS, correct?

It's because I like ideas to make sense.

'Lack', need, or 'desire' are also NOT what 'want' is.

I also have NOT defined God so as to incorporate any lack, need, or desire.

All is well then.

But what is the person actually recognizing and accepting, et cetera?

Surely if the 'thing', which is being recognized and accepted, was being recognized and accepted for what 'it' Truly IS, then the joy for the person doing the recognizing and accepting would even be HIGHER, correct?

Don't forget that the mystic is concerned with one task only, usually put as 'Know Thyself'. There would be nobody else to know, recognise or accept.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am If all 'persons' are God, then is this individually or collectively?

The distinction breaks down in the end. A common analogy is waves on the surface of the ocean.

Unity with God, or union with Reality, may be the EXACT SAME thing. But, recognizing and accepting, or KNOWING what Reality, or God, Truly IS in a UNIFIED manner with and by EVERY one, EQUALLY, would be a MORE joyous and happier occasion for EVERY one, correct?

For mysticism you have to go beyond the idea of knowing and replace it with Being. Knowing God is being God and this would be the only way to know Him. But yes, this is immortality and lasting happiness. Meher Baba sums it up nicely when he says, 'True happiness is Oneness. Wherever there is duality there is trouble'. For the mystic there are not two things, Consciousness is Reality and all relationships evaporate for a fundamental view.

I am not yet sure of what, so called, "christian mystics" are exactly nor how "they" are supposed to be to "christianity".

If you want te follow this up I'd recommend 'God: A Guide for the Perplexedd' by Keith Ward or Being. Consciousness. Bliss by David Bentley Hart. For original texts there is the Philokalia. The Nag Hammadi Library, the saying of the Desert Fathers. Plotinus is always excellent. It's an extensive literature.

Loosely-speaking Christian mysticism is Classical Christianity. the religion of the early church community prior to the Roman Emperor getting involved and turning Christianity into a dogmatic monotheism,

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:54 pm

Age wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:32 pm These question did NOT assume this at all.

In fact the very opposite could be said.

Okay. My bad.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am

The idea that God could spend all eternity wanting to be listened to, heard, accepted and recognised is common but I can make no sense of it.

This is because you do NOT YET KNOW what God actually IS, correct?

It's because I like ideas to make sense.

Perfect.

You sound like someone I could actually converse with.

From what you wrote here it sounds like you have YET to come across an idea of 'God', which makes sense to you. Is this correct?

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:54 pm

'Lack', need, or 'desire' are also NOT what 'want' is.

I also have NOT defined God so as to incorporate any lack, need, or desire.

All is well then.

But what is the person actually recognizing and accepting, et cetera?

Surely if the 'thing', which is being recognized and accepted, was being recognized and accepted for what 'it' Truly IS, then the joy for the person doing the recognizing and accepting would even be HIGHER, correct?

Don't forget that the mystic is concerned with one task only, usually put as 'Know Thyself'. There would be nobody else to know, recognise or accept.

This is very true and correct, in a sense. But, there a words like 'persons', 'selfs', et cetera, and so when ALL of these 'things' are identified and defined properly and correctly, then along with this comes the Knowing of Thy 'Self'.

'Knowing Thyself' brings with it the FULL Knowing and Understanding of ALL these apparent "things", which human beings have put names to and labeled.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am If all 'persons' are God, then is this individually or collectively?

The distinction breaks down in the end. A common analogy is waves on the surface of the ocean. [/quote]

Maybe so. But analogies do NOT actually answer the questions I posed.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:54 pm

Unity with God, or union with Reality, may be the EXACT SAME thing. But, recognizing and accepting, or KNOWING what Reality, or God, Truly IS in a UNIFIED manner with and by EVERY one, EQUALLY, would be a MORE joyous and happier occasion for EVERY one, correct?

For mysticism you have to go beyond the idea of knowing and replace it with Being. Knowing God is being God and this would be the only way to know Him.

Well when a 'you' Knows 'God', FULLY and CORRECTLY, then what is recognized and realized is that God, Itself, is CERTAINY NOT the human being anthropomorphized, and gendered, word, nor concept, of a "he".

By the way knowing some thing, and then being that thing, can be two completely different things.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:54 pmBut yes, this is immortality and lasting happiness. Meher Baba sums it up nicely when he says, 'True happiness is Oneness. Wherever there is duality there is trouble'. For the mystic there are not two things, Consciousness is Reality and all relationships evaporate for a fundamental view.

Why do you speak as though these, so called, "mystics", and/or "mysticism", has, and already, KNOWS the answers?

"mystics" and mysticism vanishes when the answers are already KNOWN. As there is NO more mystery.

When does one KNOW they already have the answers, some may ask?

The answer is when ALL-OF-THIS is already CRYSTAL clear and already making PERFECT SENSE. AsIt ALREADY DOES.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:54 pm

I am not yet sure of what, so called, "christian mystics" are exactly nor how "they" are supposed to be to "christianity".

If you want te follow this up I'd recommend 'God: A Guide for the Perplexedd' by Keith Ward or Being. Consciousness. Bliss by David Bentley Hart. For original texts there is the Philokalia. The Nag Hammadi Library, the saying of the Desert Fathers. Plotinus is always excellent. It's an extensive literature.

Okay, but I do not want to follow this up. As I do not read books and because I already KNOW thee actual Truth behind this.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:54 pmLoosely-speaking Christian mysticism is Classical Christianity. the religion of the early church community prior to the Roman Emperor getting involved and turning Christianity into a dogmatic monotheism,

Okay.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:09 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:51 pm Imagine a world where EVERY one was a 'muslim', or a 'follower of' PEACE, and submitted solely to PEACE?

How GREAT and WONDROUS that would Truly BE.

Yes! If they are all Sufis. I can't be doing with all this monotheistic lawyers stuff about contracts. It's all metaphorical.

The idea God wants us to sign a contract is clearly anthropomorphism running riot. The idea that God wants anything at all is plainly ridiculous.

Btw have you read the OP?
Point is you cannot define who is a Muslim with your opinions. A Muslim has to refer to the words of God in the Quran.

In the OP I have given you references from Muslims themselves who claim they have to sign a divine contract [covenant] with Allah. In support of their points, they have given the relevant verses from the Quran which is the core constitution of Islam.

Here is a question;
Can a Muslim disobey the words and commands of Allah that are in the Quran?

Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:18 am From what you wrote here it sounds like you have YET to come across an idea of 'God', which makes sense to you. Is this correct?

Not quite. It would be true for anything like monotheism, but 'God' may be used differently.

This is very true and correct, in a sense. But, there a words like 'persons', 'selfs', et cetera, and so when ALL of these 'things' are identified and defined properly and correctly, then along with this comes the Knowing of Thy 'Self'.

I would prefer 'The Self' and not 'Thy'. It's not as if there's more than one.

'Knowing Thyself' brings with it the FULL Knowing and Understanding of ALL these apparent "things", which human beings have put names to and labeled.

No argument from me.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am

The distinction breaks down in the end. A common analogy is waves on the surface of the ocean.

Maybe so. But analogies do NOT actually answer the questions I posed.

Hmm I thought it was a good answer.

Unity with God, or union with Reality, may be the EXACT SAME thing. But, recognizing and accepting, or KNOWING what Reality, or God, Truly IS in a UNIFIED manner with and by EVERY one, EQUALLY, would be a MORE joyous and happier occasion for EVERY one, correct?

But only you would know, so why would anyone else by joyous? .

Well when a 'you' Knows 'God', FULLY and CORRECTLY, then what is recognized and realized is that God, Itself, is CERTAINY NOT the human being anthropomorphized, and gendered, word, nor concept, of a "he".

Quite so,

By the way knowing some thing, and then being that thing, can be two completely different things.

Why do you speak as though these, so called, "mystics", and/or "mysticism", has, and already, KNOWS the answers?

Because this is the case.

"mystics" and mysticism vanishes when the answers are already KNOWN. As there is NO more mystery.

I think you may be confusing the two meanings of 'mystical'. Mysticism is not the claim that Reality is a mystery.

When does one KNOW they already have the answers, some may ask?

If you have to ask then you don't know the answers. When you do you;ll spot the same knowledge in others

Okay, but I do not want to follow this up. As I do not read books and because I already KNOW thee actual Truth behind this.

Okay. In this case let's finish here. Nice to chat.