Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:52 am**

Since there has been no disagreement that the first question of ethics is: "Do individuals consciously choose their behavior?," and apparently no disagreement that they do, the second question can be addressed:

What is the objective of ethical principles?

If there are actions which are identified as ethically "wrong," or, "bad," what difference does it make if anyone does them? If there are actions which are identified as ethically, "right," or, "good," what difference does it make if those acts are neglected. If there is no identifiable objective or purpose to conforming or not conforming to ethical principles, what is their point?

[Before answering this question, consider any possible answer, and follow it with, "so what?" "So what if the human race becomes extinct, "so what," if some God does not like it, "so what," if some people suffer, "so what," if you don't like it? If these questions sound nihilistic, they are, which is why they so desparately need to be answered.]

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:06 am**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:52 am What is the objective of ethical principles?

I suppose the objective could be to live life well and it seems to me that to live virtuously is probably the best way to make that happen. Of course, I fall off the wagon of virtue here and there and I don't think I'm quite as happy as I could be. But I get by.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:24 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:06 am
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:52 am What is the objective of ethical principles?

I suppose the objective could be to live life well and it seems to me that to live virtuously is probably the best way to make that happen.

I think that is essentially correct.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:06 am Of course, I fall off the wagon of virtue here and there and I don't think I'm quite as happy as I could be. But I get by.

That is a totally different issue. If by virtue you mean those attributes in your life that lead to your own successful life and happiness, what could possibly induce you to intentionally behave to your own detriment?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:05 pm**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:24 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:06 am Of course, I fall off the wagon of virtue here and there and I don't think I'm quite as happy as I could be. But I get by.
If by virtue you mean those attributes in your life that lead to your own successful life and happiness, what could possibly induce you to intentionally behave to your own detriment?

Mental health issues.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:00 pm**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:52 am
What is the objective of ethical principles?

Whose "objective" are you referring to?

Do you mean, "What would be the Supreme Being's objective in establishing ethical principles?" Or "What is the reason particular occupations and human undertakings are framed with ethical principles?" Or "Why do some people choose to act as if there are ethical principles?" Or do you mean, "Why do some people try to convince others that ethical principles are obligatory?" Or...?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:05 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:05 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:24 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:06 am Of course, I fall off the wagon of virtue here and there and I don't think I'm quite as happy as I could be. But I get by.
If by virtue you mean those attributes in your life that lead to your own successful life and happiness, what could possibly induce you to intentionally behave to your own detriment?
Mental health issues.

It's none of my business, so please do not explain. If the issues are physiological, whatever behavior they might, "cause," is neither virtuous or vice. If the issues are purely psychological, they cannot cause your behavior, they can only cause feelings either of desire or aversion, but cannot make your choices for you.

In any case, I'm sure you will overcome your issues. Just recognizing them is a right choice. We cannot change the past, but the future is always ours.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:12 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:00 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:52 am
What is the objective of ethical principles?

Whose "objective" are you referring to?

Do you mean, "What would be the Supreme Being's objective in establishing ethical principles?" Or "What is the reason particular occupations and human undertakings are framed with ethical principles?" Or "Why do some people choose to act as if there are ethical principles?" Or do you mean, "Why do some people try to convince others that ethical principles are obligatory?" Or...?

You don't answer a question with question. I'm asking what you think the objective of ethical principles is, whatever you think the basis of that objective is.

It is a perfectly straight question. I'm only looking for perfectly straight honest answers. Do you believe there are ethical principles? Do they have an objective? What is it?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:45 pm**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:00 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:52 am
What is the objective of ethical principles?

Whose "objective" are you referring to?

Do you mean, "What would be the Supreme Being's objective in establishing ethical principles?" Or "What is the reason particular occupations and human undertakings are framed with ethical principles?" Or "Why do some people choose to act as if there are ethical principles?" Or do you mean, "Why do some people try to convince others that ethical principles are obligatory?" Or...?
You don't answer a question with question.

Actually, I do...when I want to be sure I'm understanding the questioner aright, so I can answer on topic instead of responding to something he's NOT asking.

Seems only fair. Don't you want to be understood aright, RC?

I'm only looking for perfectly straight honest answers.

I'll give you that.

Do you believe there are ethical principles? Do they have an objective? What is it?

Frank answers in order:

Yes.

Depending on who is having the "objective," maybe. That's honestly the most I can say without knowing what you mean.

And "What is it?" Well, again, it depends on who is having the objective. How can we guess the motive when we don't know for sure who the objective-having person(s) is/are?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:29 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:45 pm
Do you believe there are ethical principles? Do they have an objective? What is it?
Frank answers in order:

Yes.

Depending on who is having the "objective," maybe. That's honestly the most I can say without knowing what you mean.

And "What is it?" Well, again, it depends on who is having the objective. How can we guess the motive when we don't know for sure who the objective-having person(s) is/are?

Please clarify. You believe there are ethical principles. But as far as an objective of the ethical principles, that, "depends on who is having the objective," is that right?

I'm not interested in you answering for anyone else. What I'm asking is if your ethical principles have an objective, and if they do, what is it?

You don't have to specify an objective. You could say you have ethical principles but they have no objective, or even that you suspect they have an objective but don't know what it is, or simply not answer at all. I'm not demanding an answer, only providing an opportunity to answer for those who choose to.

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:48 pm**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:29 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:45 pm
Do you believe there are ethical principles? Do they have an objective? What is it?
Frank answers in order:

Yes.

Depending on who is having the "objective," maybe. That's honestly the most I can say without knowing what you mean.

And "What is it?" Well, again, it depends on who is having the objective. How can we guess the motive when we don't know for sure who the objective-having person(s) is/are?
Please clarify. You believe there are ethical principles. But as far as an objective of the ethical principles, that, "depends on who is having the objective," is that right?

Of course.

It's of no particular consequence that, say, a mere individual human may prefer particular ethical principles. Objectively, he/she may have some; it does not follow that those principles are rational, compulsory for others. A child, for example, may make the ethical precept that no person can play the ball outside the lines, with the objective of controlling the game. That's an objective.

Likewise, if a professional group holds certain ethical precepts, such as teachers' or doctors' ethical codes, they have no particular force for anybody not a member of the teachers' union or the medical college. The objective in that case is to regulate the behaviour within the profession...no more.

And the ethical preferences a whole society may be aimed at preserving their particular, favoured way of life. Meanwhile, another society has a very different ethical code, aimed at preserving a very different way of life. Those are their objectives.

So all these groups HAVE an objective, and an objective for which they make use of an ethical code. There is certainly some practical utility in setting up such arbitrary ethical codes.

But to say that the code itself is "objective" is, of course, quite a different thing. An ethical code may have an objective-in-view without having any particular universally-objective implications.

So the question, "Sez who?" matters, when we ask whether or not ethics have an objective. People may have many objectives, some legitimate and some perhaps not so legitimate. But the question, "Do humans sometimes make use of ethical codes for purposes they have?" is too trivial, and too empirically obvious to ask. Of course they do that. But saying so doesn't show any of that legitimate.

I'm not interested in you answering for anyone else. What I'm asking is if your ethical principles have an objective, and if they do, what is it?

To teach mankind particular things about God.

Is that a straight enough answer?

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:53 pm**

crowd control...

-Imp

Posted: **Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:54 pm**

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:53 pm crowd control...

-Imp

Not a bad answer...

Posted: **Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:26 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:48 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:29 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:45 pm

Frank answers in order:

Yes.

Depending on who is having the "objective," maybe. That's honestly the most I can say without knowing what you mean.

And "What is it?" Well, again, it depends on who is having the objective. How can we guess the motive when we don't know for sure who the objective-having person(s) is/are?
Please clarify. You believe there are ethical principles. But as far as an objective of the ethical principles, that, "depends on who is having the objective," is that right?
Of course.

It's of no particular consequence that, say, a mere individual human may prefer particular ethical principles. Objectively, he/she may have some; it does not follow that those principles are rational, compulsory for others. A child, for example, may make the ethical precept that no person can play the ball outside the lines, with the objective of controlling the game. That's an objective.

Likewise, if a professional group holds certain ethical precepts, such as teachers' or doctors' ethical codes, they have no particular force for anybody not a member of the teachers' union or the medical college. The objective in that case is to regulate the behaviour within the profession...no more.

And the ethical preferences a whole society may be aimed at preserving their particular, favoured way of life. Meanwhile, another society has a very different ethical code, aimed at preserving a very different way of life. Those are their objectives.

So all these groups HAVE an objective, and an objective for which they make use of an ethical code. There is certainly some practical utility in setting up such arbitrary ethical codes.

But to say that the code itself is "objective" is, of course, quite a different thing. An ethical code may have an objective-in-view without having any particular universally-objective implications.

So the question, "Sez who?" matters, when we ask whether or not ethics have an objective. People may have many objectives, some legitimate and some perhaps not so legitimate. But the question, "Do humans sometimes make use of ethical codes for purposes they have?" is too trivial, and too empirically obvious to ask. Of course they do that. But saying so doesn't show any of that legitimate.

I'm not interested in you answering for anyone else. What I'm asking is if your ethical principles have an objective, and if they do, what is it?
To teach mankind particular things about God.

Is that a straight enough answer?

Yes! Thank you very much.

Posted: **Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:52 am**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:26 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:48 pm Is that a straight enough answer?
Yes! Thank you very much.

So...that doesn't make sense to me. Why would we think that the "second question of ethics" (to paraphrase) was something like, "What do people use ethics for?"

After all, we've skipped the whole question of whether or not there is any actual legitimacy in them, or in using them for anything.

Posted: **Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:06 pm**

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:53 pm crowd control...

-Imp

That would make the objective of ethical principles a social thing, then, wouldn't it?

Would, "the objective of ethical principles is to make society nice," mean the same thing?

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