Philosophy Now Forum

Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible. There is no need for God in the first case since the process of nothing to something is possible. Introducing God in the second case cannot help to have something out of nothing since the process is logically impossible. Therefore, there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible. There is no need for God in the first case since the process of nothing to something is possible. Introducing God in the second case cannot help to have something out of nothing since the process is logically impossible. Therefore, there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

The need for God has nothing whatsoever to do with the premise you are trying to establish in your OP.

The need for God is based on the necessity for the existence of a conscious intelligence to shape the “something” into a context of order.
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bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible. There is no need for God in the first case since the process of nothing to something is possible. Introducing God in the second case cannot help to have something out of nothing since the process is logically impossible. Therefore, there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

...not unless there is a power hidden in nothing which produces something which is most likely the case. One could call it God though the concept in that context is thoroughly unrelated to any of its ordinary human connotations. One can imagine god as that force within nothing which implodes itself into existence, in effect, turning itself inside-out. According to that analogy it's right to describe the universe as the body of god; in our case creating in its wake conscious beings who can create their own in response to whatever perspective prevails.

something from nothing...

David Sleaze the Punk Magician

"nothing up my sleeve... it's a bird... F you!"

-Imp

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:48 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible. There is no need for God in the first case since the process of nothing to something is possible. Introducing God in the second case cannot help to have something out of nothing since the process is logically impossible. Therefore, there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

The need for God has nothing whatsoever to do with the premise you are trying to establish in your OP.

It has.

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:48 pm The need for God is based on the necessity for the existence of a conscious intelligence to shape the “something” into a context of order.
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What if the ordered reality is one of the possible realities? We are only observing it ordered since the ordered reality is needed for existence of intelligence.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm Nothing to something is either logically possible or it is logically impossible. There is no need for God in the first case since the process of nothing to something is possible. Introducing God in the second case cannot help to have something out of nothing since the process is logically impossible. Therefore, there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

...not unless there is a power hidden in nothing which produces something which is most likely the case.

There is no need for the extra force if nothing to something is possible. It is possible then it would happen since you don't get anything if nothing happens. A force was needed if the process was not possible because of the existence of a barrier.

Moreover, our mechanical way of thinking comes from observing the universe. But the universe is the state of existence of something rather than nothing. So the state of nothing could be different, it is thermodynamically unstable for example. By thermodynamically unstable I mean, there are infinite modes of existence whereas there is one mode of nothing.

In the end, I have an argument against the act of creation. You can find the argument in here. Therefore, the process of nothing to something is mandatory since the eternal universe is impossible and there was a beginning.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:26 pm something from nothing...

David Sleaze the Punk Magician

"nothing up my sleeve... it's a bird... F you!"

-Imp

There was no magic there. Magicians perhaps are using the same principle!

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:48 pm The need for God has nothing whatsoever to do with the premise you are trying to establish in your OP.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm It has.

How?

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:48 pm The need for God is based on the necessity for the existence of a conscious intelligence to shape the “something” into a context of order.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm What if the ordered reality is one of the possible realities? We are only observing it ordered since the ordered reality is needed for existence of intelligence.

What ordered the ordered reality?
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seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:32 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:48 pm The need for God has nothing whatsoever to do with the premise you are trying to establish in your OP.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm It has.

How?

If nothing to something is possible then it would happen. There is no force for holding the process to happen. Therefore, there is no need for God. If it was impossible then even God could not do it.

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:32 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:48 pm The need for God is based on the necessity for the existence of a conscious intelligence to shape the “something” into a context of order.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm What if the ordered reality is one of the possible realities? We are only observing it ordered since the ordered reality is needed for existence of intelligence.

What ordered the ordered reality?
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There is no need for an orderer. As I mentioned the ordered reality is one of the possible realities.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm ...there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

Who said there was such a need?

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm There is no need for an orderer. As I mentioned the ordered reality is one of the possible realities.

Describe the other possible realities.
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bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm ...there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

What if the very first something to emerge out of nothing was God?

And without God...

(i.e., the original something from nothing)

...there would never be anything other than nothing?

Would you still insist that there was no need for God to have something out of nothing?

And I'm still waiting for your reply to this:

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:54 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm There is no need for an orderer. As I mentioned the ordered reality is one of the possible realities.

Describe the other possible realities.

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seeds wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:54 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm ...there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

Who said there was such a need?

I thought you. We are on the same page if you think that there is no need for God.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:54 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm There is no need for an orderer. As I mentioned the ordered reality is one of the possible realities.

Describe the other possible realities.
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Anything imaginable is possible as a reality. 5-dimensional space, 6-dimensional space, ..., random universe.

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:59 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:46 pm ...there is no need for God to have something out of nothing.

What if the very first something to emerge out of nothing was God?

And without God...

(i.e., the original something from nothing)

...there would never be anything other than nothing?

Would you still insist that there was no need for God to have something out of nothing?

And I'm still waiting for your reply to this:

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:54 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:44 pm There is no need for an orderer. As I mentioned the ordered reality is one of the possible realities.

Describe the other possible realities.

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You could also have infinite number of creatures with an infinite amount of power of creativity at the beginning, so-called spiritual beings, omnipotents, omniscinets and omnipresents.