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Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:07 pm
by VVilliam
Recently I have been engaged in discussion [which started with this post] regarding the existence of nothing [aka "no-thing"?] and since the discussion fragmented from the main topic subject, I thought I would start a thread in this forum to invite discussion on both ideas and whether The Theory Nothing Exists is compatible with Simulation Theory.

To flesh out what I [at least] understand about The Theory Nothing Exists, it is not positing that no-thing(s) exist, but rather, that there is an actual counterpart to existence which is "non-existence", and that non-existence actually exists as something which can be either experienced as real or conceptualized as possibly real.

It appears that the main reason for the positing that nothing exists is that most humans seem to have a memory of not existing..or to the point - emerging from a state of nothing into something, therefore, since we apparently come from nothing, then it must exist, for that is where we come from.

The Simulation Theory posits that we exist within a reality simulation [one among possibly countless simulations] so in a sense we are not experiencing anything which is real. The things we think we are experiencing are not real but simulated to be experienced as real.

Q: Are both theories able to be shown as non-contradictory to each other?

Simulation theory also implies a created thing, effectively pointing to the expanded idea that IF we are experiencing a Reality Simulation, THEN there has to be a Creator [or Creators] involved.

Is this compatible with The Nothing Exists Theory?

Obviously those smart enough would reply "Yes!" because Simulation Theory could include the possibility that a 'nothing' sector was built into the overall simulation.

We can point to our own experience of coming into this reality, as we have a memory of having come out of such a sector.

But then of course, we have to acknowledge that the "nothing sector" resides within the simulation, and so is only real to those also within the simulation. That in itself does not give us an adequate answer to the question "Is nothing an actual real place which has to also exist outside of this simulation, but is not a simulation itself?"

Which places the focus of attention upon The Creator(s) position outside of this simulation. Is/are The Creator(s) themselves existing within a simulation - [intelligence would favor the 'yes' answer] and if so, how do we know that this pattern doesn't repeat itself? [infinite regress fallacy]

The answer is that infinite regress is illogical. At some point there has to be a "Source-Point" otherwise Simulation Theory would have to be dismissed as an explanation for existence. Or if not completely dismissed, then one would have to conclude that everything and nothing is simulated and nothing created everything and everything created nothing.

It becomes an eternal loop which - going nowhere - [we don't know where] - seems pointless in relation to consciousness, which has the unfortunate role of having to experience simulated reality, because consciousness too comes from nothing/something/something/nothing and is simulated.

Therefore the only way to make conscious experience sensible in relation to Simulation Theory and Nothing Exists Theory is to remove the illogical infinite regress fallacy, which leaves us with the idea that At Some Point there was/is an Original Creator [not Creators] and it is from this origin, that all else became through and Original Simulator created by the original Creator.

In relation to the idea that our simulated reality was created by creators who themselves were/are in an simulation - this idea should be included for the sake of fairness, but ultimately doesn't [shouldn't?] matter.

This premise;

"We exist within a reality simulation which itself was created by Creator(s) who also exist in a reality simulation which itself was created by a Creator who has always existed and does not come from 'nowhere/nothing' - as in - that is the Original Creator and the Original Creator does not have the memory of once not existing - iow - does not have a memory of nothing existing, and in that, Nothing does not exist as far as The Original Creator is concerned."

In that premise, both Theories are compatible with one another.

That is the short and curlies of it.


Intelligent Comments, as usual, most welcome

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:56 am
by Eodnhoj7
VVilliam wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:07 pm Recently I have been engaged in discussion [which started with this post] regarding the existence of nothing [aka "no-thing"?] and since the discussion fragmented from the main topic subject, I thought I would start a thread in this forum to invite discussion on both ideas and whether The Theory Nothing Exists is compatible with Simulation Theory.

To flesh out what I [at least] understand about The Theory Nothing Exists, it is not positing that no-thing(s) exist, but rather, that there is an actual counterpart to existence which is "non-existence", and that non-existence actually exists as something which can be either experienced as real or conceptualized as possibly real.

It appears that the main reason for the positing that nothing exists is that most humans seem to have a memory of not existing..or to the point - emerging from a state of nothing into something, therefore, since we apparently come from nothing, then it must exist, for that is where we come from.

The Simulation Theory posits that we exist within a reality simulation [one among possibly countless simulations] so in a sense we are not experiencing anything which is real. The things we think we are experiencing are not real but simulated to be experienced as real.

Q: Are both theories able to be shown as non-contradictory to each other?

Simulation theory also implies a created thing, effectively pointing to the expanded idea that IF we are experiencing a Reality Simulation, THEN there has to be a Creator [or Creators] involved.

Is this compatible with The Nothing Exists Theory?

Obviously those smart enough would reply "Yes!" because Simulation Theory could include the possibility that a 'nothing' sector was built into the overall simulation.

We can point to our own experience of coming into this reality, as we have a memory of having come out of such a sector.

But then of course, we have to acknowledge that the "nothing sector" resides within the simulation, and so is only real to those also within the simulation. That in itself does not give us an adequate answer to the question "Is nothing an actual real place which has to also exist outside of this simulation, but is not a simulation itself?"

Which places the focus of attention upon The Creator(s) position outside of this simulation. Is/are The Creator(s) themselves existing within a simulation - [intelligence would favor the 'yes' answer] and if so, how do we know that this pattern doesn't repeat itself? [infinite regress fallacy]

The answer is that infinite regress is illogical. At some point there has to be a "Source-Point" otherwise Simulation Theory would have to be dismissed as an explanation for existence. Or if not completely dismissed, then one would have to conclude that everything and nothing is simulated and nothing created everything and everything created nothing.

It becomes an eternal loop which - going nowhere - [we don't know where] - seems pointless in relation to consciousness, which has the unfortunate role of having to experience simulated reality, because consciousness too comes from nothing/something/something/nothing and is simulated.

Therefore the only way to make conscious experience sensible in relation to Simulation Theory and Nothing Exists Theory is to remove the illogical infinite regress fallacy, which leaves us with the idea that At Some Point there was/is an Original Creator [not Creators] and it is from this origin, that all else became through and Original Simulator created by the original Creator.

In relation to the idea that our simulated reality was created by creators who themselves were/are in an simulation - this idea should be included for the sake of fairness, but ultimately doesn't [shouldn't?] matter.

This premise;

"We exist within a reality simulation which itself was created by Creator(s) who also exist in a reality simulation which itself was created by a Creator who has always existed and does not come from 'nowhere/nothing' - as in - that is the Original Creator and the Original Creator does not have the memory of once not existing - iow - does not have a memory of nothing existing, and in that, Nothing does not exist as far as The Original Creator is concerned."

In that premise, both Theories are compatible with one another.

That is the short and curlies of it.


Intelligent Comments, as usual, most welcome
"The answer is that infinite regress is illogical. At some point there has to be a "Source-Point" otherwise Simulation Theory would have to be dismissed as an explanation for existence. Or if not completely dismissed, then one would have to conclude that everything and nothing is simulated and nothing created everything and everything created nothing."

If phenomenon are continually created and recreated then the source point is an ever present medium and infinite regress is a continuum of cycles.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:24 am
by bahman
Nothing is a state of affair that was real. Something is another state of affair that is real now. It is simple to see that nothing is unstable since it is only one state of affair whereas something is boundless number of states of affiar so we have something out of nothing.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:10 am
by VVilliam
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:56 am
If phenomenon are continually created and recreated then the source point is an ever present medium and infinite regress is a continuum of cycles.
How does this connect with the Theory the Nothing Exists?

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:15 am
by VVilliam
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:24 am Nothing is a state of affair that was real. Something is another state of affair that is real now. It is simple to see that nothing is unstable since it is only one state of affair whereas something is boundless number of states of affiar so we have something out of nothing.
One may as well state "It was magic!"

Because, that is what "Something out of nothing" implies.

Besides, one has identified 'nothing is unstable' which means it is 'something' which is 'unstable'.

It is far more logical to understand that an intelligent eternal consciousness is the source of everything.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:37 am
by Skepdick
VVilliam wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:07 pm Recently I have been engaged in discussion [which started with this post] regarding the existence of nothing [aka "no-thing"?] and since the discussion fragmented from the main topic subject, I thought I would start a thread in this forum to invite discussion on both ideas and whether The Theory Nothing Exists is compatible with Simulation Theory.

To flesh out what I [at least] understand about The Theory Nothing Exists, it is not positing that no-thing(s) exist, but rather, that there is an actual counterpart to existence which is "non-existence", and that non-existence actually exists as something which can be either experienced as real or conceptualized as possibly real.
"Existence" is a touchy subject in any language/framework for reasons to be explained... shortly.

If you are talking about simulation theory, then I assume you have some computational background/framework in mind. From the PoV of a computer system "existence" is memory allocation. Something that doesn't have a memory footprint doesn't exist.

The label/variable which points to a memory address is called a pointer.
Non-existence then is simply a null-pointer.

The concept of "non-existence" is exactly like the concept of Null. Nothing meaningful can be said about null because any attempt to de-reference a null-pointer results in program crash.

And so, in a sense "existence" and "non-existence" are claims about your own ontology. When you say "X exists" you are saying to me "X is NOT a null-pointer in my head". There is a referent.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:49 am
by bahman
VVilliam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:15 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:24 am Nothing is a state of affair that was real. Something is another state of affair that is real now. It is simple to see that nothing is unstable since it is only one state of affair whereas something is boundless number of states of affiar so we have something out of nothing.
One may as well state "It was magic!"

Because, that is what "Something out of nothing" implies.

Besides, one has identified 'nothing is unstable' which means it is 'something' which is 'unstable'.

It is far more logical to understand that an intelligent eternal consciousness is the source of everything.
Well, if something is possible as well as nothing then the process of nothing to something is possible. If something is impossible then magic also cannot help you considering the definition of impossible. The reality is that there is an explanation for everything.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:50 am
by Skepdick
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:49 am The reality is that there is an explanation for everything.
Are you sure? Can you explain how explanations work?

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:57 am
by bahman
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:50 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:49 am The reality is that there is an explanation for everything.
Are you sure? Can you explain how explanations work?
Explanation works because the reality has an explanation.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:55 am
by Skepdick
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:57 am Explanation works because the reality has an explanation.
I didn't ask a "why?" question.
I asked a "how?" question.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:22 am
by Skepdick
VVilliam wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:07 pm It appears that the main reason for the positing that nothing exists is that most humans seem to have a memory of not existing..or to the point - emerging from a state of nothing into something, therefore, since we apparently come from nothing, then it must exist, for that is where we come from.
Also... the concepts of "memory" and "state" are closely related.
A system/device which is used to persist "state" is called "memory".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(computer_science)

You can't possibly have a memory of not existing, because that would be a null-pointer. You simply have a conception of "beginning of my memories" and so by induction you infer that there was also a time before you existed.

The confusion arises because you aren't accounting for the 2nd timeline. IF we live in a simulation there are two clocks.

Real time and System time. And potentially even a third... your own perception of the passage of time.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:29 pm
by Eodnhoj7
VVilliam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:10 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:56 am
If phenomenon are continually created and recreated then the source point is an ever present medium and infinite regress is a continuum of cycles.
How does this connect with the Theory the Nothing Exists?
Nothing is not a thing in itself but a relationship between parts. For example an empty cup points to the relationship between a liquid and a cup. The emptiness is an absence of a specific relation, ie that which lacks something. In this case the liquid in the cup. Void is not a thing on itself thus is self negating. Only being exists.

The void voids itself and is expressed only as being. This being in turn is voided into multiple beings resulting in the relationship between parts thus necessitating being as have a dynamic state where it moves itself through itself through void. For example the liquid can only be poured into the cup if the cup is empty, the emptiness allows for the relationship between water and cup, and their subsequent movements to occur.

Simultaneously this void acts as the intrinsic curvature which allows for the cup and water to have distinct properties. Looking at water in a cup, one can see the distinct curvature of both the cup and the water as intrinsically empty yet it is the boundary line which allows for this aforementioned distinction. Another example of this is the line between the half full cup and the air, the line maintains the definite properties between the air and water yet is intrinsically empty.

Void, as the relationship between parts, is both the emptiness of a specific phenomena and is the curvature which allows for definition. How this applies through a theory where all is a simulation, or an illusion, is that being in its totality is directed through itself as itself through the void. The imaginary, or rather illusive nature of reality, reflects void acting much like a barrier. This barrier is the multiplicity of phenomena which in turn acts as a means of approximation in a manner where the "whole" or the "all" is only observed in parts. This absence of a perceivable, yet existing, whole is the masking of the "One" through the "Many".

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:27 am
by VVilliam
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:49 am
VVilliam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:15 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:24 am Nothing is a state of affair that was real. Something is another state of affair that is real now. It is simple to see that nothing is unstable since it is only one state of affair whereas something is boundless number of states of affiar so we have something out of nothing.
One may as well state "It was magic!"

Because, that is what "Something out of nothing" implies.

Besides, one has identified 'nothing is unstable' which means it is 'something' which is 'unstable'.

It is far more logical to understand that an intelligent eternal consciousness is the source of everything.
Well, if something is possible as well as nothing then the process of nothing to something is possible. If something is impossible then magic also cannot help you considering the definition of impossible. The reality is that there is an explanation for everything.
As the OP premise has it;

"This premise;

"We exist within a reality simulation which itself was created by Creator(s) who also exist in a reality simulation which itself was created by a Creator who has always existed and does not come from 'nowhere/nothing' - as in - that is the Original Creator and the Original Creator does not have the memory of once not existing - iow - does not have a memory of nothing existing, and in that, Nothing does not exist as far as The Original Creator is concerned."

In that premise, both Theories are compatible with one another."
Well, if something is possible as well as nothing then the process of nothing to something is possible.
Only within simulations.

The Original Creator did not come from 'nothing' into 'something', but has always existed.

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:35 am
by VVilliam
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:22 am
VVilliam wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:07 pm It appears that the main reason for the positing that nothing exists is that most humans seem to have a memory of not existing..or to the point - emerging from a state of nothing into something, therefore, since we apparently come from nothing, then it must exist, for that is where we come from.
Also... the concepts of "memory" and "state" are closely related.
A system/device which is used to persist "state" is called "memory".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(computer_science)

You can't possibly have a memory of not existing, because that would be a null-pointer. You simply have a conception of "beginning of my memories" and so by induction you infer that there was also a time before you existed.

The confusion arises because you aren't accounting for the 2nd timeline. IF we live in a simulation there are two clocks.

Real time and System time. And potentially even a third... your own perception of the passage of time.
You can't possibly have a memory of not existing, because that would be a null-pointer. You simply have a conception of "beginning of my memories" and so by induction you infer that there was also a time before you existed.
You forget the OP subject and premise:
"We exist within a reality simulation which itself was created by Creator(s) who also exist in a reality simulation which itself was created by a Creator who has always existed and does not come from 'nowhere/nothing' - as in - that is the Original Creator and the Original Creator does not have the memory of once not existing - iow - does not have a memory of nothing existing, and in that, Nothing does not exist as far as The Original Creator is concerned."

In that premise, both Theories are compatible with one another."

In the sense that "beginning of memories" applies to 'that which has a beginning' [and in relation with the nature of this simulation] we are born into something which was around before us...we do not remember being in it throughout, so we have no memory - we are 'blank slate' and this place where we appear to 'come from' represents 'nothing' in as far as we are concerned.

We do not know if we existed before we were born into this...but simulation theory implies that this could be the case. We just don't remember. [perhaps something about the simulation forced the amnesia, but regardless - the 'nothing' we think exists, has to do with that event....[from nothing to something]

Re: Simulation Theory and The Theory that Nothing Exists

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:48 am
by VVilliam
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:29 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:10 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:56 am
If phenomenon are continually created and recreated then the source point is an ever present medium and infinite regress is a continuum of cycles.
How does this connect with the Theory the Nothing Exists?
Nothing is not a thing in itself but a relationship between parts. For example an empty cup points to the relationship between a liquid and a cup. The emptiness is an absence of a specific relation, ie that which lacks something. In this case the liquid in the cup. Void is not a thing on itself thus is self negating. Only being exists.
So you agree then "Nothing does not exist".
The void voids itself and is expressed only as being. This being in turn is voided into multiple beings resulting in the relationship between parts thus necessitating being as have a dynamic state where it moves itself through itself through void. For example the liquid can only be poured into the cup if the cup is empty, the emptiness allows for the relationship between water and cup, and their subsequent movements to occur.
You call 'emptiness' 'nothing'?

Indeed, I ask for examples of 'nothing existing' and I am handed an empty cup. But I know the cup is not empty. The water replaces the oxygen which filled the cup prior to the water being poured into it.
Simultaneously this void acts as the intrinsic curvature which allows for the cup and water to have distinct properties. Looking at water in a cup, one can see the distinct curvature of both the cup and the water as intrinsically empty yet it is the boundary line which allows for this aforementioned distinction. Another example of this is the line between the half full cup and the air, the line maintains the definite properties between the air and water yet is intrinsically empty.
Yet we know from doing the science that what appears 'empty' is in fact not empty at all. The boundaries allow us our illusions...
Void, as the relationship between parts, is both the emptiness of a specific phenomena and is the curvature which allows for definition. How this applies through a theory where all is a simulation, or an illusion, is that being in its totality is directed through itself as itself through the void. The imaginary, or rather illusive nature of reality, reflects void acting much like a barrier. This barrier is the multiplicity of phenomena which in turn acts as a means of approximation in a manner where the "whole" or the "all" is only observed in parts. This absence of a perceivable, yet existing, whole is the masking of the "One" through the "Many".
In this light, First Source Consciousness is Its own reality and always has been [being]. "The Void" is not "nothing" but rather a thing created for a purpose. Effectively [and through layering] FSC created the void in order to inject an aspect of its wholeness into said void, creating "Many".

The First Source was never created. The Many were, through the initial Void.

Such being the case..."Nothing" really does not exist.