Philosophy Now Forum

• 1. IF, at room temperature it appears as a liquid.
  
  2. IF heated to 100 degrees centigrade, it start boiling.
  
  3. IF Continually boiled to higher heat, the liquid became gas liked {steam}.
  
  4. IF the content in the sealed glass is then cooled to room temperature, it gets misty then becomes liquid again.
  
  5. IF the glass container is kept in a freezer. As the temperature is gradually reduced, the contents form white solid particles.
  
  6. IF the temperature dropped below Zero degree centigrade, the content became a white solid.
  
  7. IF the content are brought back to room temperature, it become liquid again.

In metaphysics, [Philosophical] Realism about a given object is the view that this object exists in reality independently of our conceptual scheme. In philosophical terms, these objects are ontologically independent of someone's conceptual scheme, perceptions, linguistic practices, beliefs, etc.
-wiki

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:59 am Say we take 10 ml of a liquid and seal it within a very thick glass container.

Then we do various experiments and noted the following:

• 1. IF, at room temperature it appears as a liquid.
  
  2. IF heated to 100 degrees centigrade, it start boiling.
  
  3. IF Continually boiled to higher heat, the liquid became gas liked {steam}.
  
  4. IF the content in the sealed glass is then cooled to room temperature, it gets misty then becomes liquid again.
  
  5. IF the glass container is kept in a freezer. As the temperature is gradually reduced, the contents form white solid particles.
  
  6. IF the temperature dropped below Zero degree centigrade, the content became a white solid.
  
  7. IF the content are brought back to room temperature, it become liquid again.

We can guest from the above, the liquid in the sealed glass in 'water' i.e. H2O.
Since the content is sealed within very thick glass, there is nothing added except for a change in the external temperatures.

8. IF the content within the sealed glass are seen with an atomic microscope, the contents are molecules inferred from 1-7 re a nth number of H2O molecules.

9. IF Using an electron microscope, the contents are n-number of hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

10. IF the contents are subjected to a Wave Function Collapse, there are a combination of waves and particles and this is dependent on the observers who performed their respective experiments.

My point is:
Which of the above 1 to 10 is the really-real thing?

The question is how can the "same" one-thing be so "many" different things.
Is this a contradiction?

What is the ultimate reality of the above content within that sealed glass?

Note there is an "IF" to all the above experiments thus also its conclusions. This imply reality can only be conditional upon the conditions of the observers, i.e. human conditions.
This contra the claims of Philosophical Realism, which is

In metaphysics, [Philosophical] Realism about a given object is the view that this object exists in reality independently of our conceptual scheme. In philosophical terms, these objects are ontologically independent of someone's conceptual scheme, perceptions, linguistic practices, beliefs, etc.
-wiki

Note the above is not merely applicable to 'water' but to everything there is in the Universe and reality.

Views?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:59 am Say we take 10 ml of a liquid and seal it within a very thick glass container.

Then we do various experiments and noted the following:

• 1. IF, at room temperature it appears as a liquid.
  
  2. IF heated to 100 degrees centigrade, it start boiling.
  
  3. IF Continually boiled to higher heat, the liquid became gas liked {steam}.
  
  4. IF the content in the sealed glass is then cooled to room temperature, it gets misty then becomes liquid again.
  
  5. IF the glass container is kept in a freezer. As the temperature is gradually reduced, the contents form white solid particles.
  
  6. IF the temperature dropped below Zero degree centigrade, the content became a white solid.
  
  7. IF the content are brought back to room temperature, it become liquid again.

We can guest from the above, the liquid in the sealed glass in 'water' i.e. H2O.
Since the content is sealed within very thick glass, there is nothing added except for a change in the external temperatures.

8. IF the content within the sealed glass are seen with an atomic microscope, the contents are molecules inferred from 1-7 re a nth number of H2O molecules.

9. IF Using an electron microscope, the contents are n-number of hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

10. IF the contents are subjected to a Wave Function Collapse, there are a combination of waves and particles and this is dependent on the observers who performed their respective experiments.

My point is:
Which of the above 1 to 10 is the really-real thing?

The question is how can the "same" one-thing be so "many" different things.
Is this a contradiction?

What is the ultimate reality of the above content within that sealed glass?

Note there is an "IF" to all the above experiments thus also its conclusions. This imply reality can only be conditional upon the conditions of the observers, i.e. human conditions.
This contra the claims of Philosophical Realism, which is

In metaphysics, [Philosophical] Realism about a given object is the view that this object exists in reality independently of our conceptual scheme. In philosophical terms, these objects are ontologically independent of someone's conceptual scheme, perceptions, linguistic practices, beliefs, etc.
-wiki

Note the above is not merely applicable to 'water' but to everything there is in the Universe and reality.

Views?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:19 pm all you are doing is changing the scale of the count

protagoras waz here

-Imp

TheVisionofEr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:09 pm Ice is essentially something different from water judged from the perspective of a stickler for mixed drinks who orders one "over rocks." Water will merely "water down" the drink.

Judged from the practices of the chemist the identity of the "element" on his table of particle compounds holds a unity through the phase changes.

Thus, it is a matter of the calculus of methodological dominions whether the "identity" holds or not.

Remember, when we go beyond the electron cloud, thus beyond chemistry, all energy is said to be identical in its conversation to matter. Everything is "one stuff" within the practice of some forms of physics.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:29 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:59 am Say we take 10 ml of a liquid and seal it within a very thick glass container.

You experiments cannot work in a sealed container since the volume is fixed heat and pressure changes are not taken into account by your examples. Boiling and Freezing have to be accompanied by a change of volume.

But to answer your question; It's all real.
THERE IS NO REALLY REAL.

• Point is whatever is the container, it is suitable for the experiment to display the conditional perspectives of reality which is intertwined with the human conditions.
  I did not specify, the thick [enough] glass container is 1000 ml or could be larger to accommodate the pressure changes.
  I could have used a large enough thick steel container with thick see through glass window or a temperature and heat tolerable camera inside.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:23 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:29 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:59 am Say we take 10 ml of a liquid and seal it within a very thick glass container.

You experiments cannot work in a sealed container since the volume is fixed heat and pressure changes are not taken into account by your examples. Boiling and Freezing have to be accompanied by a change of volume.

But to answer your question; It's all real.
THERE IS NO REALLY REAL.

I agree "THERE IS NO REALLY REAL" reality is conditional 'IFs" to the human conditions.

The critical point is, there is no really-real God existing as real which created the Universe and had sent his holy book of commands which threatened believers to comply, else they will go to HELL.

• Point is whatever is the container, it is suitable for the experiment to display the conditional perspectives of reality which is intertwined with the human conditions.
  I did not specify, the thick [enough] glass container is 1000 ml or could be larger to accommodate the pressure changes.
  I could have used a large enough thick steel container with thick see through glass window or a temperature and heat tolerable camera inside.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:30 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:23 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:29 pm
You experiments cannot work in a sealed container since the volume is fixed heat and pressure changes are not taken into account by your examples. Boiling and Freezing have to be accompanied by a change of volume.

But to answer your question; It's all real.
THERE IS NO REALLY REAL.

I agree "THERE IS NO REALLY REAL" reality is conditional 'IFs" to the human conditions.

The critical point is, there is no really-real God existing as real which created the Universe and had sent his holy book of commands which threatened believers to comply, else they will go to HELL.

• Point is whatever is the container, it is suitable for the experiment to display the conditional perspectives of reality which is intertwined with the human conditions.
  I did not specify, the thick [enough] glass container is 1000 ml or could be larger to accommodate the pressure changes.
  I could have used a large enough thick steel container with thick see through glass window or a temperature and heat tolerable camera inside.

You are not understanding the problem of the "SEALED" container. You have to ask what else is in the jar with the water. It's not about simply accommodating the pressure changes - the pressure changes the ability of water to boil or to freeze.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle%27s_law

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:53 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:30 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:23 am
I agree "THERE IS NO REALLY REAL" reality is conditional 'IFs" to the human conditions.

The critical point is, there is no really-real God existing as real which created the Universe and had sent his holy book of commands which threatened believers to comply, else they will go to HELL.

• Point is whatever is the container, it is suitable for the experiment to display the conditional perspectives of reality which is intertwined with the human conditions.
  I did not specify, the thick [enough] glass container is 1000 ml or could be larger to accommodate the pressure changes.
  I could have used a large enough thick steel container with thick see through glass window or a temperature and heat tolerable camera inside.

You are not understanding the problem of the "SEALED" container. You have to ask what else is in the jar with the water. It's not about simply accommodating the pressure changes - the pressure changes the ability of water to boil or to freeze.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle%27s_law

Noted the above variations.

There is nothing other than 10 ml of pure H20.

My point is to demonstrate;
The state of the thing changes when whatever the conditions are changed.

I could use a more than enough container and then changes the temperature and note down the temperature and pressure at every phase when there is a significant change of state.

Thus if all the liquid changed to gas at X degree centigrade at pressure Y PSI, then i will take note of that temperature.

The above actually justify my thesis by introducing more conditions,
thus there is nothing really-real in the absolute sense except what is real is always conditional, relative and perspective-related intertwined with the human conditions.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:16 am

TheVisionofEr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:09 pm Ice is essentially something different from water judged from the perspective of a stickler for mixed drinks who orders one "over rocks." Water will merely "water down" the drink.

Judged from the practices of the chemist the identity of the "element" on his table of particle compounds holds a unity through the phase changes.

Thus, it is a matter of the calculus of methodological dominions whether the "identity" holds or not.

Remember, when we go beyond the electron cloud, thus beyond chemistry, all energy is said to be identical in its conversation to matter. Everything is "one stuff" within the practice of some forms of physics.

Can you see your points which imply;

Whatever "is" is dependent on the perspective and judgement of the person.
or
dependent on the specific faculty of knowledge, i.e. Physic re 'energy'.

Thus reality, i.e. "is" is imperatively intertwined and dependent on humans' conditions, i.e. perspective, judgement and system of knowledge.

Show me one case where 'what is reality' is absolutely independent of humans' conditions, i.e. perspective, judgement and system of knowledge.

So my point stand;
There is nothing that is absolutely real independent of the human conditions.
Note Neitzche "perspectivism" and the views of the Philosophical anti-realist, especially Kant.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:59 amWhat is Really Real?