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Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:06 pm
by TheVisionofEr
Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans. Otherwise it wouldn't be what it was always thought to be. The Enlightenment explicated under the Kantian principle was the last and first full blooded announcement of the old belief in knowledge. Reason was meant to be capable of gaining it. Today it is taken for granted that knowledge does not exist. Yet, propaganda attempts constantly to create the impression that it does. Steven Pinker is the most obvious spokesperson of this myth. Supposedly progress in the universities comes of itself and leads to improvement of human life. However it is not that one is dying from improvement, but rather that a mistake was made in transforming the notion of knowledge into blind experiment. Thus pushing it below science into the art of meaningless making.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:20 pm
by Skepdick
In the spirit of apophatics: I don't know what knowledge is, but if it's not useful it's not knowledge.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:38 am
by zinnat13
There are three somewhat related but differtent things in this regard.

Intelligence, knowledge and wisdom.

Intelligence is how much anyone can learn.

Knowledge is how much one has been learned so far.

Wisdom is how one uses his intlligence and knowledge.

A hacker will be no less intelligent and knowledgeable than the origanal programmer. The difference between the two is only in their wisdoms.

with love
sanjay

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:06 am
by Veritas Aequitas
TheVisionofEr wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:06 pm Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans. Otherwise it wouldn't be what it was always thought to be.
Knowledge is NEVER critically equated with utility to humans.
Falsehoods [illusory God, Santa Claus, white lies], placebos and can have utilities to humans.

Note:
100 Totally Useless Facts That Are Too Entertaining for Words
https://bestlifeonline.com/useless-facts/

You are too hasty in your conclusion.

What exists are thoughts.
Expressed thoughts are within a continuum from opinions, beliefs, to knowledge.
What is knowledge is 'what is held to be true' as justified within a specified framework of thought - thus is objective as qualified.

Scientific knowledge with its established features has the highest credibility but it has to be qualified to the requirements of the Scientific Framework and has no validity outside of its specific framework.
In general Scientific Knowledge start with opinions [guesses and abduction] then to beliefs [personal or groups hypothesis] then justified true beliefs via the Scientific Method and peer review to be accepted as scientific knowledge.

That Trump is the present President of the USA is knowledge, but that is only valid with the Constitution of the USA. There is no obligation for other countries to accept such as a fact, if they do not wish to do so.

That Zozibini Tunzi is Miss Universe 2020 is knowledge and objective [beauty objectified] but only qualified to the Judges, the Miss Universe organization and the criteria used in the judging process.

So what critical in determining what-is-knowledge is dependent on the quality of credibility producible by its specific framework of knowledge.
Utility of knowledge is secondary.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:22 pm
by nothing
Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it negates belief-based ignorance.

All knowledge negates all belief-based ignorance ad infinitum.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:35 am
by Eodnhoj7
Skepdick wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:20 pm In the spirit of apophatics: I don't know what knowledge is, but if it's not useful it's not knowledge.
In the spirit of apophatics: I don't know what usefulness is, but if it's not knowledge it is not useful.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:39 am
by Eodnhoj7
nothing wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:22 pm Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it negates belief-based ignorance.

All knowledge negates all belief-based ignorance ad infinitum.
No it doesn't. Belief is inevitable considering there will always be something undefined.

I can analyze a context, break it down into further contexts and gain a new context from it.
Rinse and repeat this cycle and there will always be a context that is never fully analyzed and taken on belief as to what it is.

Belief is inevitable, kind of like the belief you have where if you eradicate belief then suffering will cease.

Suffering still exists without belief. I can stub my toe and regardless of what my beliefs are it will still hurt.

War exists out of envy, and disease is still common. These things exist regardless of beleif.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:05 am
by Skepdick
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:35 am In the spirit of apophatics: I don't know what usefulness is, but if it's not knowledge it is not useful.
A hammer is not knowledge. A hammer is useful instrument. That's why we invented them.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:55 pm
by nothing
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:39 am
nothing wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:22 pm Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it negates belief-based ignorance.

All knowledge negates all belief-based ignorance ad infinitum.
No it doesn't. Belief is inevitable (?) considering there will always be something undefined...
(!)

Belief itself is not the same as belief-based ignorance.

It is possible to believe someone/something without knowing the same to be true
with it later turning out to be actually true, however it is not knowledge
until it is acknowledged as no longer containing degrees of uncertainty.

Belief implies presence of one or more degrees of uncertainty.
Knowledge implies the absence of the same.

In thus knowing all: not to believe one indefinitely approaches all-knowing (theist/atheist-invariant).
The potential for the same lies in the conscience of the being
as a reflection of the quality of their own way of inquiry
such to distinguish truth from untruth. This instead of
good and evil, the latter requiring "belief" thus all eaters of the tree
of the knowledge of good and evil are "believers" such
to bring suffering and death into the world.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:20 pm
by Eodnhoj7
Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:05 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:35 am In the spirit of apophatics: I don't know what usefulness is, but if it's not knowledge it is not useful.
A hammer is not knowledge. A hammer is useful instrument. That's why we invented them.
A hammer is useless unless one knows how to use one....and yes, having worked in carpentry, a hammer does require knowing body mechanics. Without knowing how to properly use a hammer, you either damage what you are hitting or end up bending nails left and right.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:25 pm
by Eodnhoj7
nothing wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:55 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:39 am
nothing wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:22 pm Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it negates belief-based ignorance.

All knowledge negates all belief-based ignorance ad infinitum.
No it doesn't. Belief is inevitable (?) considering there will always be something undefined...
(!)

Belief itself is not the same as belief-based ignorance.

It is possible to believe someone/something without knowing the same to be true
with it later turning out to be actually true, however it is not knowledge
until it is acknowledged as no longer containing degrees of uncertainty.

Belief implies presence of one or more degrees of uncertainty.
Knowledge implies the absence of the same.

In thus knowing all: not to believe one indefinitely approaches all-knowing (theist/atheist-invariant).
The potential for the same lies in the conscience of the being
as a reflection of the quality of their own way of inquiry
such to distinguish truth from untruth. This instead of
good and evil, the latter requiring "belief" thus all eaters of the tree
of the knowledge of good and evil are "believers" such
to bring suffering and death into the world.
No, all of being exists through a relative formless unactualized state at one time or another, thus requiring belief for actualization.

For example, a young athlete is starting a new physical fitness program. He believes if he does x,y,z exercise it will make him a better athlete. He lacks the actualization of being of a superior athlete.

This belief, one where committing to a program will actualize superior athletic potential, is based upon the seeing of others follow the same work out routine and getting better results.

The same applies for religion, for many it turns life into a better state, thus other people replicate what they see in others.

All belief is the movement towards a state which is yet unactualized. It is the movement of an actual to a potential with the potential being actualized into a state of form derived from formlessness.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:19 pm
by Skepdick
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:20 pm A hammer is useless unless one knows how to use one...
It depends on what you are trying to achieve with it.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:20 pm and yes, having worked in carpentry, a hammer does require knowing body mechanics.
Who says you must use a hammer for carpentry? You can use a hammer for crushing ice - it's rather instinctive.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:20 pm Without knowing how to properly use a hammer, you either damage what you are hitting or end up bending nails left and right.
Maybe it is my very intent to "damage" what I am hitting?
Maybe it is my very intent to bend the nails?

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:31 pm
by Eodnhoj7
Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:20 pm A hammer is useless unless one knows how to use one...
It depends on what you are trying to achieve with it.

Thus knowledge is mandatory.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:20 pm and yes, having worked in carpentry, a hammer does require knowing body mechanics.
Who says you must use a hammer for carpentry? You can use a hammer for crushing ice - it's rather instinctive.

Different type of hammers for different purposes requires different knowledge.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:20 pm Without knowing how to properly use a hammer, you either damage what you are hitting or end up bending nails left and right.
Maybe it is my very intent to "damage" what I am hitting?
Having done amateur lumberjack work with an axe, there is still technique in "damaging" something.

Maybe it is my very intent to bend the nails?

Knowledgable technique as well.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:11 pm
by nothing
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:25 pm
nothing wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:55 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:39 am

No it doesn't. Belief is inevitable (?) considering there will always be something undefined...
(!)

Belief itself is not the same as belief-based ignorance.

It is possible to believe someone/something without knowing the same to be true
with it later turning out to be actually true, however it is not knowledge
until it is acknowledged as no longer containing degrees of uncertainty.

Belief implies presence of one or more degrees of uncertainty.
Knowledge implies the absence of the same.

In thus knowing all: not to believe one indefinitely approaches all-knowing (theist/atheist-invariant).
The potential for the same lies in the conscience of the being
as a reflection of the quality of their own way of inquiry
such to distinguish truth from untruth. This instead of
good and evil, the latter requiring "belief" thus all eaters of the tree
of the knowledge of good and evil are "believers" such
to bring suffering and death into the world.
No, all of being exists through a relative formless unactualized state at one time or another, thus requiring belief for actualization.
It's the other way around: actual begets potential.
The constituency of the potential is based on the consciousness of the being.

Answers are static, whereas
questions are dynamic, thus
potential and inquiry are related.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:39 am For example, a young athlete is starting a new physical fitness program. He believes if he does x,y,z exercise it will make him a better athlete. He lacks the actualization of being of a superior athlete.
Know him the desired results certainly won't come unless he first tries?

The same is true with belief:

TRUTH-by-WAY-of-NEGATION
... truth by way of living ...
o. to: ...ad infinitum... consciously acknowledge all BELIEF(s)
i. to TRY both: +to and -not (+alpha and -omega) to BELIEVE
ii. to TEST both: +true and/or -not (necessarily)
iii. to FALSIFY all BELIEF(s) NOT (necessarily) TRUE
...ad infinitum ...

Knowing all: not to believe approaches all-knowing theist/atheist-invariant.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:39 am This belief, one where committing to a program will actualize superior athletic potential, is based upon the seeing of others follow the same work out routine and getting better results.

The same applies for religion, for many it turns life into a better state, thus other people replicate what they see in others.

All belief is the movement towards a state which is yet unactualized. It is the movement of an actual to a potential with the potential being actualized into a state of form derived from formlessness.
You have it upside-down: all belief is static, knowledge is dynamic.

Answers are static: they are fixed.
Questions are dynamic, they cause movement.

You ask a question. You subject it to alpha/omega
generate a movement to/from truth (accordingly)
such to posit new questions, thus new movement.

Those who ask not questions, but merely believe to have all the answers
(such as: as contained in a single book as "revealed" by a single all-knowing god)
are the ones who are both suffering and stagnant: they have no conscious knowledge
of their own belief-based ignorance causing the same, thus turn to blame and abuse.

Re: Knowledge can not be knowledge unless it helps humans.

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:24 pm
by Skepdick
nothing wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:11 pm Answers are static, whereas
questions are dynamic, thus
If you have a well-structrued ontology, there is no distinction between expressing a question and expressing an answer. They are isomorphic.

A question can be expressed as a statement using Relational algebra.

The question is static. If your ontology is static, then so is your answer.