Philosophy Now Forum

Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.

Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.

Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.

It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.

Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?

That deception would take lies, and that is a sin, and that sin also preceded Adam’s sin.

Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.

Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?

Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?

Why and how does knowledge kill us?

If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?

The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.

This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.

The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.

In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.

Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

if god created everything- it was god

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:02 pm if god created everything- it was god

-Imp

Yep. His great plan.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:51 pm Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Adam and Eve got kicked out for trying to blame their own actions on another,
Adam the woman (look at Islamic hijab/niqab/burqa, these are the original sin of man blaming woman for his own iniquity)
woman the serpent (related to sexual lust; can only see the world in terms of sex, sex and sex leads to the mark of the beast).

Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.

Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.

It's not a matter of "who" but "what" as in the end, there is nobody left to blame.

Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.

The concerned story is mythology: it is not real. Satan is a condition that describes an individual(s) who are bound in an ongoing state - for example, to believe something that is not true. Similarly, Eden is not a place, it is a local internal displacement entailing a degree of separation from being in union.

It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.

Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?

Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.

The serpent is neither Satan nor evil/deceptive: what the serpent said is just as 'true' as what god said.
Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil can either produce death (over and over again)
or one can become like god knowing good and evil. They are both equally true: it is a matter of conscience.

Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?

The question assumes there is a god, and the same has a plan, so can not be answered.

More generally: if one touches a hot stove and burns their hand, should they not learn from their mistake, they are liable to burn their hand again and suffer accordingly. Eating from the tree is related: one can not know exactly what the tree causes unless they eat from it and find out. It causes death until one "learns" not to eat from it, and the same is eating from the tree of living: to eat from all other trees, except that one that causes death. This is 'believing' to know 'good and evil' while being (dead) wrong. See the "believers" for what that is like: they suffer/die over and over.

Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?

Why and how does knowledge kill us?

Only false knowledge (ie. belief) kills, as it is not possible to truly have 'all' knowledge of so-called 'good and evil' as
it takes a 'believer' to 'believe' they "know it all" so-to-speak. Each person's expiry represents their own eating from the tree,
insofar as their life is an expression of whatever they "believed" in. It takes a "believer" to "believe" evil is good, thus
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil relates directly to "belief" but hardly a Jew/Christian/Muslim knows this.
See each their own bloody histories respectively.

If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?

The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.

This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.

It's not complicated: it takes a "believer" to "believe" the opposite of what is true, thus
Satan requires "belief" in order for a "believer" to "believe" Satan is God (should they exist).
This amounts to "believing" to know good and evil, but having it (dead) wrong, hence the admonishment.
The same is Christ (truth) and anti-Christ (falsity). There is a way to see this very easily:

Take two identical beings whose limbs are represented thus:
arms: (All+/-Not) as {alpha/omega}
legs: (To Know-/+To Believe) as {beg/end}
{to know all not to believe...} tends towards all-knowing (theist/atheist-invariant) ceasing suffering/death
{to believe all not to know...} tends towards all-belief-based ignorance(s) causing suffering/death

All knowledge negates all belief-based ignorance ad infinitum.

The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.

In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.

Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.

Thoughts?

It's not a punishment, it's a natural consequence that is brought on by Eve. It is corollary to eating from the tree: the serpentine energy can cause women to become "enslaved" to men, which is to say men will "rule over" them, and this is true: see the misogyny of Islam, for example. This ideology is a/the elaboration of the original sin and practically lives under the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: "believers". What do they "believe"?

nothing

A good commentary. Thanks.

My only comment on misogyny is that I would not emphasize Islam's without expanding the comment to almost all religions. I have to exempt the universalist religions, like Gnostic Christianity, that has to give equality to all souls.

That is why we have tied god's righteousness to equality. Those who do not give equality to all, we see as un-righteous.

Your analogies and mine are not exactly the same, but close enough.

I do not see anything about sex in the myth, other than the fact that knowledge of it is required to open our eyes to our own sexuality.

I also do not see Adam blaming Eve and read his "Gen 3;12 And the man said: 'The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." as Adam just giving a truthful answer to god.

To my way of thinking, he is showing his good sense in just shutting up and taking the gift of an education.

I think the scribes were just indicating the reality that girls and women mature faster than men.

Speaking of abdicating ones responsibility for ones actions and sins, Christians have brough that to a new low in moral thinking by lining up to use Jesus as their scapegoat.

That one demonstrably immoral tenet is why some, like Bishop Spong, say that that will be what kills Christianity.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:51 pm Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.

Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.

Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.

It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.

Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?

That deception would take lies, and that is a sin, and that sin also preceded Adam’s sin.

Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.

Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?

Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?

Why and how does knowledge kill us?

If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?

The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.

This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.

The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.

In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.

Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

Per original Judaism - first temple (100o BC) I suspect the mindset was man was limited and so "sinned" - and the original story in Genesis of Adam and Eve was one of a Rise from a Beast/animal to semi godhood via the "apple" (fig probably BTW).

per latter - post Babylon invasion and destruction of 1st Temple (and so reformation of Judaism via cultural conquest) - we have a re-write of the interpretation of the Genesis story (Adan sinned) - by the now new deity (that did not exist in Judaism prior to Babylon - and latter Persian release from said conquest ---- Ahriman - now known as Satan by Chrsitians.


so post 587 Judiasm concurs with Christianity - that Adam "fell" via Satan (Ahriman).

Rev was written by a Jewish Essene - so real jew - converted to Christianity - that books author affirms the view of Adam's "fall" - and even equates the Serpent and Levithon as Ahriman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (even though originally - pre 1st temple conquest by Babylonians - Olden jews viewed "The snake" as a Cananite god related and equal to YHWH, and Leviethon is litterally a mytholigical beast (like Rahab and Bohemouth) - so two separate beings.

what i difference invasion and occupation by a foriegn power - over several decades - make to reform/change the religion of the pleabs (Jews) - and so the birth of Satan and the "fall" of adam per the "good book's" first work.

Christian view of Adam's Fall is just inherited from the Jews revision via 587 BC.

gaffo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:41 pm

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:51 pm Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.

Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.

Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.

It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.

Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?

That deception would take lies, and that is a sin, and that sin also preceded Adam’s sin.

Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.

Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?

Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?

Why and how does knowledge kill us?

If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?

The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.

This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.

The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.

In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.

Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

Per original Judaism - first temple (100o BC) I suspect the mindset was man was limited and so "sinned" - and the original story in Genesis of Adam and Eve was one of a Rise from a Beast/animal to semi godhood via the "apple" (fig probably BTW).

per latter - post Babylon invasion and destruction of 1st Temple (and so reformation of Judaism via cultural conquest) - we have a re-write of the interpretation of the Genesis story (Adan sinned) - by the now new deity (that did not exist in Judaism prior to Babylon - and latter Persian release from said conquest ---- Ahriman - now known as Satan by Chrsitians.


so post 587 Judiasm concurs with Christianity - that Adam "fell" via Satan (Ahriman).

Rev was written by a Jewish Essene - so real jew - converted to Christianity - that books author affirms the view of Adam's "fall" - and even equates the Serpent and Levithon as Ahriman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (even though originally - pre 1st temple conquest by Babylonians - Olden jews viewed "The snake" as a Cananite god related and equal to YHWH, and Leviethon is litterally a mytholigical beast (like Rahab and Bohemouth) - so two separate beings.

what i difference invasion and occupation by a foriegn power - over several decades - make to reform/change the religion of the pleabs (Jews) - and so the birth of Satan and the "fall" of adam per the "good book's" first work.

Christian view of Adam's Fall is just inherited from the Jews revision via 587 BC.

Plagiarized, yes, and the moral of the myth reversed from the Jewish Original Virtue to the necessary Original Sin foolishness of Christianity.

A good myth if Christianity had not screwed it up.

Regards
DL