Philosophy Now Forum

There is no YOU to die or be born. Except as an artifical conception, aka mental construction, albeit an illusory identity.

Zen Poem

If a tree were to identify itself as just a tree, then it would also consider Itself dead should a lumber jack cut it down.

But if the tree identified itself as a forest, although wounded by the loss of the tree, the forest continued to live.

If the forest considered itself as just a forest, then it would consider itself dead should a fire raze it to the ground.

But if the forest identified itself as all plant life on earth, although again wounded, will continue to live.

If plant life were to identify itself as just planet life, then it would consider itself dead should the sun overheat the planet.

But if plant life were to consider itself the solar system, again it is wounded but still exists.

If the solar system identified itself as just a solar system, it would consider itself dead should the sun stop shining.

But if the solar system were to consider itself the Universe, and it's loss like that of a single hair.

If the universe considered itself consciousness, then death becomes a figment of our imagination.

Even as a tree.

I agree with the premise. The "I", the "Self", comes about in the processing of sensory experience. So the "Self" is not anything internal, but is the manifestation of the particular set of life experiences. These experiences are thrown at the self without its permission, not accreted via the free will choice of the individual. They don't originate as an action of the self, but as a reaction to the environment (the universe); not that much different than a bi-metal strip activating your furnace. Therefor, the so-called 'self' is a manifestation of the universe from a single stable viewpoint. And the universe still exists after countless human deaths. THe universe will still do what it always does impinging on the sensory experience of living humans. And all the experiences which created a given departed 'self', or point of view, are still at work in the universe, so that everything that I experienced in becoming 'me', is available to future individuals. Maybe the experiences won't happen in the same order so as to recreate a given point of view (*although this is certainly statistically possible), but what will come out of this new individuals set of experiences is a new point of view' commonly called a 'self'.

f

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm There is no YOU to die or be born.

Then YOU won't mind if people kill YOU.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:28 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm There is no YOU to die or be born.

Then YOU won't mind if people kill YOU.

Killing is not a deliberate action though is it? ...would you ever deliberately kill yourself? and even if you did, what it is you think you would be killing?

"The thirst that causes you to pull the trigger is the same thirst that will bring you right back."

Notice that life just keeps on appearing to be there/here even though it dies....and besides that, where can life go? where would it go but be still here now, do you see this?

Do you not see there is no self that can die or be born? and that birth and death are illusions of the mind that thinks about them.

It's the identity that is born and will die, not life itself which has no identity.

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Sleep is a short term death and death is a long term sleep.

On awakening from a nightly dream it is seen that the dream was not real, it is seen that the dream was just an appearance in the dreamer and was not real. This is what is the real SELF. The real self is the observerless observer of all objects without ever being the object.

Nothing can ever harm or touch the SELF for the true real self is neither born nor dead.

Just like the movie on your tv screen. Nothing ever happened to the characters in the movie, for the movie wasn't real, well it's the same for waking life, waking life is likened to that tv screen and movie playing where nothing is ever harmed or is happening.

Identification is the suffering than never really suffered.



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Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:28 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm There is no YOU to die or be born.

Then YOU won't mind if people kill YOU.

You missed the irony, perhaps.

There is, in your view, no YOU to be killed, but also no YOU to resent someone trying. There is no YOU to have a right not to be murdered, and no murder, since no YOU was killed. There will also, presumably, be no murderer put in no jail for the no crime he/she didn't commit.

We might add there's no YOU to be speaking right now; so I'm not writing to anyone, and no YOU to receive it, or to miss the point of the quip.

With all this talking going on, though, one wonders where it's coming from. (Hint: more irony.)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:59 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:28 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm There is no YOU to die or be born.

Then YOU won't mind if people kill YOU.

You missed the irony, perhaps.

There is, in your view, no YOU to be killed, but also no YOU to resent someone trying. There is no YOU to have a right not to be murdered, and no murder, since no YOU was killed. There will also, presumably, be no murderer put in no jail for the no crime he/she didn't commit.

We might add there's no YOU to be speaking right now; so I'm not writing to anyone, and no YOU to receive it, or to miss the point of the quip.

With all this talking going on, though, one wonders where it's coming from. (Hint: more irony.)

Dear Immanuel

I do understand the irony. And so yes, there is no victim without a perpetrator and vice versa within the human realm of language. We only know what we know through our unique use of language. Human beings have evolved to be very aware of themselves as a sentient creature with a language knowing birth and death as and through their ability to identify with their own self made concepts.

But then, I'm more interested in what the scriptures say in the following quote.

John 3:16 says

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Now when I read that quote, it seems to suggest an everlasting eternal life. And that to my logic implies there is life without begining nor end. And that the notion of an ''individual self'' having a begining and an end is a fictional conceptual idea, an illusion within the story of language..or something like that. I'm interested in what your opinion would be on this matter ... thanks!

But, if you start to get too technical and complicated, or too intellectually challenging with me, then I'll lose interest, I can't be doing with those heavy long winded debates. I just like to keep things short and sweet and simple that a child can understand, ok?

Over to you.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:29 am But then, I'm more interested in what the scriptures say in the following quote.

John 3:16 says

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Now when I read that quote, it seems to suggest an everlasting eternal life. And that to my logic implies there is life without begining nor end.

Correct.

But now, notice that there is a condition. It's for "whosoever believeth..." But, you might ask yourself, what if one chooses not to believe? What then is the destiny of such? And if the gift of eternal life is given to those that believe, then to whom is it not given?

And that the notion of an ''individual self'' having a begining and an end is a fictional conceptual idea, an illusion within the story of language..or something like that. I'm interested in what your opinion would be on this matter ... thanks!

No problem.

Individual selves have a beginning. We were all born sometime. But as you say, potentially we have no end...if the gift of John 3:16 is received.

However, a gift cannot be forced upon people, without it ceasing to be a gift and starting to be an act of violence against their will. For something to be a gift, it has to be desirable and receivable, but also not-presently-had-already (I can't "gift" you your own car, for example, but I can "gift" you one I've bought for you), and must be received by free will (or it's an imposition, not a gift).

So the question for us all is, the gift has been purchased and offered; do you want the gift?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:29 am But then, I'm more interested in what the scriptures say in the following quote.

John 3:16 says

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Now when I read that quote, it seems to suggest an everlasting eternal life. And that to my logic implies there is life without begining nor end.

Correct.

But now, notice that there is a condition. It's for "whosoever believeth..." But, you might ask yourself, what if one chooses not to believe? What then is the destiny of such? And if the gift of eternal life is given to those that believe, then to whom is it not given?

All deflection.

The term 'begotten Son of God' many centuries ago refers to 'Children are the begotton "son" of adults' in the days of when this is written. Realizing that adults create (the) life 'we', human beings, all live in, and thus adults are (thee) God of life, from this perspective, and parents also the actual givers of life to all children, then with this realization this means that 'children' are, in a sense, (the second coming of) 'jesus'.

So now, when children are BELIEVED IN, then they CAN and WILL grow up to their FULL POTENTIAL. This is; being God-like, or thee God Being. It is this 'Being' that is Truly eternal.

Although the human 'being' has a beginning it can however also be everlasting. The human 'being' (or 'person') is just the non visible 'thoughts and emotions', these obviously begin when the human body and brain is developed enough, but it is the 'thoughts' that actually create the life 'we' all live in. When those 'thoughts' believieth IN 'children', and their True POTENTIAL, then the everlasting effect on all 'children' will be forever more. The very fact that what is created, from the human being, literally comes from the 'thinking', and it is 'thinking', which can anyway have an everlasting effect. It is in fact the thoughts passed on down to each generation WHY 'you' are the way 'you' are NOW. If the thinking, ALL THE WAY BACK, which was taught to ALL of 'your' ancestors, to behave the way that they ALL have and did, was different in absolutely any way, shape, or form, then 'you' would NOT be the EXACT SAME way that 'you' are right NOW.

WHEN a generation of adults/parents, whosoever they will be, START Truly doing what is right and good and START believing in their children, then those one will START creating 'life', as it is meant to be, in peace and harmony, and so 'they', the non visible thoughts, will NOT perish, and have, AND WILL literally BE IN, everlasting Life.

And that the notion of an ''individual self'' having a begining and an end is a fictional conceptual idea, an illusion within the story of language..or something like that.

No it is NOT.

There are True and living human beings. These beings have a beginning. These beings are NOT some "fiction" nor "illusion", as some like to BELIEVE they are. Although these beings are NOT the actual real True Self, although they like to THINK they are. There IS, OBVIOUSLY, 'thinking beings', It is these beings which think of themselves as a self. This is NOT an illusion. This is what REALLY HAPPENS.

Obviously the thing that is the idea can NOT be fictional nor an illusion itself. So, then what is 'it' exactly that the 'idea/thought' IS? It is the 'person' or what I like to call the little 'i' or little 'self'. This 'self' is really NOT what "it" thinks it is, but rather, is just thee 'thinking' itself. This can be proven to be True, because when asked for clarification NO little 'self' can actual confirm what it is, other than the non visible thinking (and emotions) within a human body.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:29 amI'm interested in what your opinion would be on this matter ... thanks!

No problem.

Individual selves have a beginning. We were all born sometime. But as you say, potentially we have no end...if the gift of John 3:16 is received.

However, a gift cannot be forced upon people, without it ceasing to be a gift and starting to be an act of violence against their will. For something to be a gift, it has to be desirable and receivable, but also not-presently-had-already (I can't "gift" you your own car, for example, but I can "gift" you one I've bought for you), and must be received by free will (or it's an imposition, not a gift).

So the question for us all is, the gift has been purchased and offered; do you want the gift?

Are you able to explain;
How 'you' could receive that "gift"?
How it is given? And,
By who/what?

For if there is a gift, then it MUST come from some where/some thing.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:16 am Are you able to explain;
How 'you' could receive that "gift"?

Sure, Age.

By faith, as said in John 3:16.

How it is given? And,
By who/what?

By God Himself, through faith in Jesus Christ.

It's the gift of forgiveness, new life now, and eternal life.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:45 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:16 am Are you able to explain;
How 'you' could receive that "gift"?

Sure, Age.

By faith, as said in John 3:16.

If that is the best you can do, then so be it.

By the way, was the 'faith' word even used in 'john 3:16'?

If no, then 'by faith' was NOT said in john 3:16. Unless, of course, you can show otherwise.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:45 am

How it is given? And,
By who/what?

By God Himself, through faith in Jesus Christ.

What does 'faith in "jesus christ" even mean or entail?

And, what is this 'God' thing, which 'you' speak of?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:45 amIt's the gift of forgiveness, new life now, and eternal life.

But True forgiveness can only come about through one source.

Forgiveness, itself, is not new life now, nor eternal life. What causes forgiveness, however, helps in creating the new eternal peaceful life, which is soon to begin.

Are you saying that by just having 'faith', whatever that entails and actually means, in just one human being with the name "jesus christ" who was walking and talking over 2000 years, then some 'God' thing will give 'me' a gift of 'forgiveness', which will then allow me to not perish, and have everlasting life?

If yes, then will you elaborate on this and explain it in a bit more detail?

Also, where is this everlasting life exactly, where i will not perish?

What you have provided so far, really says and explains nothing at all.

(The True Answers to ALL OF THIS, by the way, are very easy to discover and learn as well as being very simple to FULLY understand as well).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pm Correct.

But now, notice that there is a condition. It's for "whosoever believeth..." But, you might ask yourself, what if one chooses not to believe? What then is the destiny of such? And if the gift of eternal life is given to those that believe, then to whom is it not given?

Thanks IC...OK, so the way I personally see this is as follows... to believe is to keep the continuity of the dream world going so that it appears to be as being real. To believe is to work on being mindful and wide awake in the dream knowing oneself to be both the dreamer and the dream.. being openly accepting, all forgiving, and to be in total surrender to whatever happens within the dream. To believe is to become so open and totally lucid - knowing the difference between the real and unreal...so to speak.

But to disbelieve is to be soley identified with just the ego self that apparently is born and will die with no real awareness of what it means to be immortal. Would this be fair to say? you can make moderations if it's off the mark.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pmIndividual selves have a beginning. We were all born sometime. But as you say, potentially we have no end...if the gift of John 3:16 is received.

Yes, thank you, I understand that...in the sense that to be aware of our immortality, we would have to have acquired the knowledge of beginings..in the sense that when one thing is known, everything is known...in other words unless you become aware you are born you cannot die to be born into eternal life...and that without knowing birth, you cannot know what is death...death being what's known as the second birth...is that fair to say? ....I'm interested in how you would say it IC?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pmHowever, a gift cannot be forced upon people, without it ceasing to be a gift and starting to be an act of violence against their will.

Thanks, I understand this, insofar as there is the choice to accept the gift or not. And this is what is meant by free will, we either accept the gift in it's entire package or we reject it, it's entirely our choice, yes that makes sense, thanks IC

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pm For something to be a gift, it has to be desirable and receivable, but also not-presently-had-already (I can't "gift" you your own car, for example, but I can "gift" you one I've bought for you), and must be received by free will (or it's an imposition, not a gift).

Very good, I get that, it's like in the film Forest Gump, where he says Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get...and that seems about right, it's about having faith and believing that the gift will always be there on offer to be taken or rejected, but never forced, which makes sense, and is what any loving creator would do.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pmSo the question for us all is, the gift has been purchased and offered; do you want the gift?

I agree with you IC...I understand how this gift has already been purchased, and that in no way is any one obliged to want it...very good IC...Dam has always known you IC...I can recognise my own fruit. I've always thought you to be the friendliest and most patient poster on this forum as well. But I see that as a rare quality these days, not many people know how to appreciate someone like you.

But I do.

Anyhow, do continue...with your good work.



PS...sometimes I think to myself I do not want the gift anymore, but then there's just something so irresistable about taking it.
I cannot help but want it no matter how bad and horrible life as a sentient creature can be sometimes. The weird thing is, even the evil and the terror all comes from the same place which is LOVE.


.

f12hte wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:24 pm I agree with the premise. The "I", the "Self", comes about in the processing of sensory experience. So the "Self" is not anything internal, but is the manifestation of the particular set of life experiences. These experiences are thrown at the self without its permission, not accreted via the free will choice of the individual. They don't originate as an action of the self, but as a reaction to the environment (the universe); not that much different than a bi-metal strip activating your furnace. Therefor, the so-called 'self' is a manifestation of the universe from a single stable viewpoint. And the universe still exists after countless human deaths. THe universe will still do what it always does impinging on the sensory experience of living humans. And all the experiences which created a given departed 'self', or point of view, are still at work in the universe, so that everything that I experienced in becoming 'me', is available to future individuals. Maybe the experiences won't happen in the same order so as to recreate a given point of view (*although this is certainly statistically possible), but what will come out of this new individuals set of experiences is a new point of view' commonly called a 'self'.

f

Very well said, although I would personally call the ''called self'' an actor upon the empty stage, playing a role watched by itself who is also the audience, for there is no play without an audience to witness it.



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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pm Correct.

But now, notice that there is a condition. It's for "whosoever believeth..." But, you might ask yourself, what if one chooses not to believe? What then is the destiny of such? And if the gift of eternal life is given to those that believe, then to whom is it not given?

Thanks IC...OK, so the way I personally see this is as follows... to believe is to keep the continuity of the dream world going so that it appears to be as being real.

The word 'believe', in religious texts, does NOT mean, and NEVER has meant, to continue to believe in 'that', which is NOT real.

The word 'believe or believeith' is actually saying the CONTRARY. That is, ONLY believe INTH 'that', which is REAL. The ONLY REAL Thing, which it is BEST to 'BELIEVE IN' is thy True Self. Thee True Self is the ONLY Thing that can be Truly KNOWN anyway, whilst BELIEVING IN the ability of being able to do and create absolutely ANY thing, which is Truly desired is what 'BELIEVING IN Self actually means.

This is WHY I say, I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing (other than BELIEVING IN Self, and Its abilities).

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 amTo believe is to work on being mindful and wide awake in the dream knowing oneself to be both the dreamer and the dream.. being openly accepting, all forgiving, and to be in total surrender to whatever happens within the dream.

'you' can 'work' on that as much as 'you' want. But 'work' implies a sense of NOT just Being. If 'you' HAVE TO 'work' on being mindful, then 'you' are NOT just Being Mind-full, which thee Mind is Truly OPEN at Being NATURALLY, anyway.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 am To believe is to become so open and totally lucid - knowing the difference between the real and unreal...so to speak.

LOL the very OPPOSITE is True. When some thing is BELIEVED to be true, then that is as CLOSED as one can be.

Obviously if 'one' is BELIEVING some thing IS true, then they are NOT open to any thing else contrary.

NOT believing and NOT assuming any thing to be true is WHEN 'one' is Truly OPEN and Totally Lucid. Absolutely EVERY thing is KNOWN and totally easy AND simple to understand when NOT believing and NOT assuming any thing, as I have been saying from the outset.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 amBut to disbelieve is to be soley identified with just the ego self that apparently is born and will die with no real awareness of what it means to be immortal. Would this be fair to say? you can make moderations if it's off the mark.

This is, like most of what you say, just slightly 'off the mark'.

To 'disbelieve' causes the EXACT SAME complete CLOSEDNESS as does 'believing' does. The little 'self' IS born, comes into Existence, just like every thing else does, besides thee Universe, Itself, and will to some extent pass away eventually, with, as you say, NO REAL awareness of what it means to be immortal. However, the real and True Self NEVER dies as It NEVER was born. This Self is Truly immortal and is TOTALLY Aware and Conscious of this FACT.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pmIndividual selves have a beginning. We were all born sometime. But as you say, potentially we have no end...if the gift of John 3:16 is received.

Yes, thank you, I understand that...in the sense that to be aware of our immortality, we would have to have acquired the knowledge of beginings..in the sense that when one thing is known, everything is known...in other words unless you become aware you are born you cannot die to be born into eternal life...and that without knowing birth, you cannot know what is death...death being what's known as the second birth...is that fair to say? ....I'm interested in how you would say it IC?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pmHowever, a gift cannot be forced upon people, without it ceasing to be a gift and starting to be an act of violence against their will.

Thanks, I understand this, insofar as there is the choice to accept the gift or not. And this is what is meant by free will, we either accept the gift in it's entire package or we reject it, it's entirely our choice, yes that makes sense, thanks IC

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pm For something to be a gift, it has to be desirable and receivable, but also not-presently-had-already (I can't "gift" you your own car, for example, but I can "gift" you one I've bought for you), and must be received by free will (or it's an imposition, not a gift).

Very good, I get that, it's like in the film Forest Gump, where he says Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get...and that seems about right, it's about having faith and believing that the gift will always be there on offer to be taken or rejected, but never forced, which makes sense, and is what any loving creator would do.

Was this really NOT ALREADY KNOWN, previously?

It seems I REALLY do have a tremendous amount MORE to learn in regards to communicating better with 'you', human beings.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pmSo the question for us all is, the gift has been purchased and offered; do you want the gift?

I agree with you IC...I understand how this gift has already been purchased, and that in no way is any one obliged to want it...very good IC...Dam has always known you IC...I can recognise my own fruit. I've always thought you to be the friendliest and most patient poster on this forum as well. But I see that as a rare quality these days, not many people know how to appreciate someone like you.

But I do.

Anyhow, do continue...with your good work.



PS...sometimes I think to myself I do not want the gift anymore, but then there's just something so irresistable about taking it.

What is this 'gift', which you two are talking about?

Is it the same gift?

Is it 'eternal life', 'forgiveness', or 'some thing' else altogether?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 am I cannot help but want it no matter how bad and horrible life as a sentient creature can be sometimes. The weird thing is, even the evil and the terror all comes from the same place which is LOVE.


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But True LOVE comes from thee one and only Truly OPEN Mind first, whereas 'evil and terror' comes from the human brain. Two VERY different things.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:15 am By the way, was the 'faith' word even used in 'john 3:16'?

Yes. The word "believe" is the same word in the Greek. Greek has essentially one word with two functions, that can be both noun and verb: English doesn't, so it has to translate it sometimes as "faith" and sometimes as "believe."

What does 'faith in "jesus christ" even mean or entail?

It means complete reliance on the truthfulness of the one being trusted.

And, what is this 'God' thing, which 'you' speak of?

You are unfamiliar with the concept? How about Creator? Or Supreme Being? Or First Cause? What term makes sense to you?

Are you saying that by just having 'faith', whatever that entails and actually means, in just one human being with the name "jesus christ" who was walking and talking over 2000 years, then some 'God' thing will give 'me' a gift of 'forgiveness', which will then allow me to not perish, and have everlasting life?

Not quite the way I'd put it, but essentially correct. I can fill that out for you.

If yes, then will you elaborate on this and explain it in a bit more detail?

Sure. But I'll need to see what you have as a concept of "God" first, if indeed its' a concept you don't know, so I'll know how to explain in an understandable way.