Philosophy Now Forum

Caution: This is a critique of the ideology of Islam, so do not blame or bash Muslims as followers.

This critique of Islam as not a peaceful religion is presented in two sections; i.e.

• A. Premises and argument of The Critiques of Islam
  
  B. The Muslim and Muslim Apologist’s counter the above with the following premises;

A. Premises and argument of The Critiques of Islam

To justify why the ideology of Islam at its core is inherently uncompromising and violent to non-Muslims consider the following sequential premises:

1) The main focus/purpose of Islam is to make Islam the only religion on earth, with Sharia replacing all infidel law and culture. This Jihad objective is historically rooted in Islam's core Scriptures [imperative upon all Muslims] with an inherently malignant, evil and violent ethos. All non-Muslims are to be fought and subjugated simply because they refuse to believe in the religion of Islam. . .

• Qur’an 61:9 He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance [HDY: hudā] and the religion [wadeeni i.e Islam] of truth, that He may make it conqueror [ZHR: liyuẓ'hirahu; prevail] of all religion [alddeeni] however much idolaters [l-mush'rikūna: infidels] may be averse [kariha: dislike].
  
  Qur'an 9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.​

2) This evil and violent ethos is supported by the loads of evil and violent elements within a core strategy of Jihad in stages until the whole world is one religion - Islam. Historically, Jihad includes the subjugation, enslaving, pillaging, destruction or conversion of unbelievers (infidels), with the goal of Shar'ia replacing all infidel laws and culture.

3) These evil and violent elements of Jihad against unbelievers “had,” “has” and “will” influence and compel a critical 'SOME' of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil and violent acts upon non-Muslims. The motive or reward for Islamic Jihad are
the divine promise of eternal reward to satisfy basic sensual pleasures,
temporal prestige and reward of riches and sex slaves.
In essence, this Islam Ideology of Jihad caters to the basic instincts of the human sin nature for sex, hate, vengeance, pride, riches, and reward - this is glaringly evident.

4) There is a natural percentile of evil prone Muslims [conservatively 20% to probable 80%] who are born with an active tendency of a range of degrees to commit evil and violent acts.

What is ‘evil’ is any act that is negative to the well being of the individual and humanity.
Evil acts come in range from low [petty crimes, lies] 10/100 to high [genocide] 90/100.​

5) The percentile of Evil prone Muslims [they have professed their faith via shahada] are essentially Muslims. Based on the concept of Takfir, no Muslim can accuse another Muslim as an disbeliever except for what a devout Muslim perceives as hypocrisy.

Takfir or takfeer (Arabic: تكفير‎ takfīr) .. denoting excommunication, as one Muslim declaring another Muslim as a non-believer (kafir).-wiki​

6. The Evil prone Muslims [ point 4, 5], when exposed to the core teachings of traditional Islam’s [2] scriptures, will naturally be triggered to commit terrible and range of evil and violent acts as a religious duty in the name of Islam. The consequences are glaring and evident within Islam’s 1400+ years of history. To this day we see large numbers of terror, evil and violent acts committed by evil prone Muslims around the world, i.e. those of Al Qaeda, IS, Boko Haram, others, lone wolf(s) who justify their acts by quoting verses from their scriptures.

7) The evil and violent ethos of Islam (rooted in Islam’s Core Scriptures) [1] and the consequential and potential terrible evil and violent acts are a threat to humanity at present and in the future… Islam’s Core Scriptures are, therefore, the destructive force behind the ideology of Islam with its universal strategy of Jihad against all unbelievers.

8.) Therefore primary attention must be directed to the ideology of Islam to resolve the potential threat of evil and violence to humanity.

Islam’s Core Scriptures are the foundation for the violent ideology of Islam against all unbelievers, apostates, and hypocrites - a universal and everlasting worldwide Jihad until Islam is the only religion.


Views?

Note off topic posts will not be entertained.

B. The Muslim and Muslim Apologist’s counter the above with the following premises;

1. Muslim Apologist: The terrible evil and violent acts are not attributable to Islam and ordinary Muslims but only to the extremists.
[this is debunked, re Dr. Bales and others like Majid Nawas who argued Islamism is part and parcel of Islam].

2. Muslim Apologist: The extremists are not practicing Islam.
[this is debunked by Islam's core scriptures of which all Islam's Caliphs, and main Jurists and Tafsir clearly utilize as their authority to carry out worldwide Jihad against unbelievers, hypocrites and apostates throughout Islam's 1400 + year history].

3. Muslim Apologist: What is Islam is practiced by the majority of Muslims who do not commit evil and violent acts upon non-Muslims.
[debunked re ad populum fallacy]. The majority are merely devotees and lay-Muslims who are ignorant of what is truly Islam in accordance to its core scriptures.

• Note:
  We have no idea how many Muslims in the West are supporters of Jihadists.
  Many other Muslims are presently being fundamentally indoctrinated in Mosques and terrorist supporting Islamic Organizations being installed all over the USA and Europe for the past 50 years at least.
  Many Muslims (and the numbers are increasing due to re-indoctrination) are presently just biding their time (silent supporters) until the next Caliph arrives to order them to fight – A silent Jihad army within our walls waiting to be commanded.​

4. Muslim Apologist: Who is a Muslim is self-defined by anyone who claim to be a Muslims and not one who must adhere 100% to the core scriptures.
[this contradict the definition of Allah's definition of Who is a Muslim in the Quran] Point is a person is a Muslim as long as he has professed his faith via the Shahada and make the attempt to practice the 5 pillars of Islam to the best of his abilities.

5. Muslim Apologist: Critics of Islam like Robert Spencer, Bill Warner, David Wood, Christian Prince, and others always rely on anti-Islam propagandist sites. These sites has been listed as hate sites by the SPLC. It is evident these serious critiques of Islam relied on the original scriptures of Islam, the tafsir by Islamic scholars and experts.

The SPLC is a very bias site and will label any views they disagree with as anti-Islam. They had even labeled Majid Nawas, a Muslim reformist as anti-Islam and was sued and they lost.​

6. Muslim Apologist: Islamic related terrorist acts represent a small % of ALL terrorists acts around the world.
The Muslims apologist will often deflect the issue to only terrorists acts that are notable but overlook the whole range of evil and violent committed by the evil prone Muslims.

7. Muslim Apologist: All the warring verses are meant to be historical and confined to the specific period, i.e. in the 7th century.
The Quran is meant to be an eternal guideline for all Muslim to apply in similar situations at any time offensively and defensively. Most Muslims at the least agree they are for defense purposes at anytime.

As can be seen above, the Muslims and Muslim apologists do not have any defense to insist the ideology of Islam is peaceful to non-Muslims.

There are many verses in the Quran that exhort Muslims to do good, but those are only for the Muslims themselves and not applicable to non-Muslims.
There are some verses [Mecca] which are seemingly peaceful to non-Muslims but these very few rare verses are conditional and abrogated by the more evil and violent verses from the Medinian period.

Views?

Off topic posts will not be entertained.

Here is a source of points related the above from an exchange of ideas
between Robert Spencer & David Wood and Shia scholars Shaykh Sakhawat Hussain & Sayyid Atiq Ebady.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgKarDCo6bY&t=436s

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:52 am
Views?

In reply to the thread topic . . Is Islam a Peaceful Religion?

My answer is people are not peaceful when those people are adhering to the ideology of Islamic Religion as it is written in the Quran.

My question to you is. . does that help your case?

.

Veritas,

Islam is not a religion of peace

No shit, Sherlock ! And from what you've written I can tell you don't know the half of it; i.e; the very real danger they represent to Western societies.

How long did it take you to work that out?

I've been saying for years that Muslims should NEVER have been permitted to immigrate into Western countries. I also believe that all of them who are currently residing in the West should be IMMEDIATELY deported.

But saying this, of course, identifies me as a racist/fascist/white supremacist/Nazi.



Dachshund

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:57 am In reply to the thread topic . . Is Islam a Peaceful Religion?

My answer is people are not peaceful when those people are adhering to the ideology of Islamic Religion as it is written in the Quran.

My question to you is. . does that help your case?

Very good, you're still with us! I guess you like Osho, here is his praise of Islam.


"Mohammed was an absolutely illiterate man, and the Koran, in which his sayings are collected, is ninety-nine percent rubbish. You can just open the book anywhere and read it, and you will be convinced of what I am saying. I am not saying on a certain page — anywhere. You just open the book accidentally, read the page and you will be convinced of what I am saying.

Whatsoever one percent truth there is here and there in the Koran is not Mohammed's. It is just ordinary, ancient wisdom that uneducated people collect easily — more easily than the educated people, because educated people have far better sources of information — books, libraries, universities, scholars. The uneducated, simply by hearing the old people, collect a few words of wisdom here and there. And those words are significant, because for thousands of years they have been tested and found somehow true. So it is the wisdom of the ages that is scattered here and there; otherwise, it is the most ordinary book possible in the world.

Muslims have been asking me, "Why don't you speak on the Koran? You have spoken on The Bible, on the Gita, this and that." I could not say to them that it is all rubbish; I simply went on postponing. Even just before I went into silence, a Muslim scholar sent the latest English version of the Koran, praying me to speak on it. But now I have to say that it is all rubbish, that is why I have not spoken on it — because why unnecessarily waste time?"


"Mohammed has given the name “Islam” to his religion. The word "islam" means peace – and Mohammed was carrying a sword; no other prophet has cut off so many heads as Mohammed has done. But on his sword the sentence was written: “Peace is my message.” Islam has been one of the most murderous religions – and peace is the message."

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:49 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:57 am In reply to the thread topic . . Is Islam a Peaceful Religion?

My answer is people are not peaceful when those people are adhering to the ideology of Islamic Religion as it is written in the Quran.

My question to you is. . does that help your case?

Very good, you're still with us!

Where else would I be?

Dachshund wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:21 pm Veritas,

Islam is not a religion of peace

No shit, Sherlock ! And from what you've written I can tell you don't know the half of it; i.e; the very real danger they represent to Western societies.

How long did it take you to work that out?

I've been saying for years that Muslims should NEVER have been permitted to immigrate into Western countries. I also believe that all of them who are currently residing in the West should be IMMEDIATELY deported.

But saying this, of course, identifies me as a racist/fascist/white supremacist/Nazi.

Dachshund

Note, we never blamed ALL Germans for the terrible evil and violent acts committed by Hitler and gang. That was why only Hitler's gang were committed for war crimes.
What is critical in this case is the root cause, i.e. the ideology of Nazi as constituted in the Main Kempf of Hitler. The solution was and is making sure Nazism do not resurrect itself in a major way.

It is the same with Islam, we should not blame nor bash Muslims as the majority of Muslims are good people.
We should be aware and take note of certain Muslims activities but the main focus should be on root cause, i.e. the ideology of Islam, i.e. represented by the 6236 verses in the Quran.

This is based on the practical principle of 'prevention is better than cure' or 'get rid of the source and preventing fires rather than fighting fire'.

Your proposal is VERY selfish, you proposed deporting ALL Muslims from the West, but you are shifting the problem of other countries.

The first step is to understand and know the truth, i.e. the ideology of Islam is inherently evil and violent. Then we need to take steps to suppress the evil and violent elements within Islam or if possible wean it off like Nazism.

Note Dr. Jeffrey Bale [expert on Islamism] who argued in this paper, Islamism is part and parcel of Islam;

• Ever since the jihadist terrorist attacks on 11 September 2001, Western policy-makers, mainstream media organs, and even academicians have been reluctant to highlight the key role played by Islamist ideology in motivating jihadist terrorist attacks.
  
  This is all the more peculiar given that, as is typical of ideological extremists, the perpetrators of these attacks themselves openly and indeed proudly emphasize the central role played by their religious beliefs, specifically their strict, puritanical interpretations of Islamic scriptures (i.e., the Qur’an) and their supposed emulation of the exemplary words and deeds of Islam’s prophet Muhammad (as recorded in the six canonical hadith collections), in motivating their violent actions.
  
  ...
  
  The legions of academic “Islam apologists” and “Islamist apologists” also immediately weighed in after the Boston bombings, as usual in a desperate effort to absolve Islam in general or Islamism in particular from bearing any moral, intellectual, or political responsibility for motivating the attacks.[12]
  Apart from their standard claims that Islam does not sanction and is therefore incompatible with terrorism, claims that are frankly absurd given that so many Islamists (and other Muslims) regularly cite well-known Qur’anic passages[13], Muhammad’s own reported actions, and the military conquests of the “rightly-guided” Caliphs and their successors to justify ongoing acts of aggression, violence, and terrorism against “infidels,”
  
  http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/ind ... w/290/html
  

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:57 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:52 am Views?

In reply to the thread topic . . Is Islam a Peaceful Religion?
My answer is people are not peaceful when those people are adhering to the ideology of Islamic Religion as it is written in the Quran.
My question to you is. . does that help your case?

If you agree the Islamic Religion is not peaceful per-se you need to justify it, note my point 2 above, i.e. where in the Quran are the justified loads of evil and violent elements to deliberate on solutions.

The solutions in this case are then;

• 1. Get rid of the evil and violent elements in the Quran.
  The question is can we do that.
  
  2. Wean off the ideology of Islam in totality as with Nazism.
  Can we do that?

Focus on the above and do not bring in any matter related to non-duality which is off topic and should be dealt with in a separate thread.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:49 pm I guess you like Osho, here is his praise of Islam.

Yes, "Praise"

Worth repeating;

• "Mohammed was an absolutely illiterate man, and the Koran, in which his sayings are collected, is ninety-nine percent rubbish.
  You can just open the book anywhere and read it, and you will be convinced of what I am saying. I am not saying on a certain page — anywhere. You just open the book accidentally, read the page and you will be convinced of what I am saying.
  
  Whatsoever one percent truth there is here and there in the Koran is not Mohammed's.
  It [the Quran] is just ordinary, ancient wisdom that uneducated people collect easily — more easily than the educated people, because educated people have far better sources of information — books, libraries, universities, scholars.
  The uneducated, simply by hearing the old people, collect a few words of wisdom here and there. And those words are significant, because for thousands of years they have been tested and found somehow true. So it is the wisdom of the ages that is scattered here and there; otherwise, it is the most ordinary book possible in the world.
  
  Muslims have been asking me, "Why don't you speak on the Koran? You have spoken on The Bible, on the Gita, this and that." I could not say to them that it is all rubbish; I simply went on postponing. Even just before I went into silence, a Muslim scholar sent the latest English version of the Koran, praying me to speak on it. But now I have to say that it is all rubbish, that is why I have not spoken on it — because why unnecessarily waste time?"
  
  "Mohammed has given the name “Islam” to his religion. The word "islam" means peace – and Mohammed was carrying a sword; no other prophet has cut off so many heads as Mohammed has done.
  But on his sword the sentence was written: “Peace is my message.” Islam has been one of the most murderous religions – and peace is the message."
  

That is so direct to the point.
Btw, what is the source of the above, I would be interested to keep that for future reference.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:30 am That is so direct to the point.
Btw, what is the source of the above, I would be interested to keep that for future reference.

It's from Osho, one of DAM's spiritual teachers (not sure if one is allowed to just copy from his online library though).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:22 am
2. Wean off the ideology of Islam in totality as with Nazism.
Can we do that?

The answer to that question is no we can't do that. Why, history always repeats, HIS-STORY.
Humans will extinct themselves long before they will evolve into a peacful species. Why, the answer can be found in the story of Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden. Muslims and the people of the West are doomed to perpetual confrontation.
Humans are story tellers. They believe the stories they write, and mistake their stories for being actual and real and true reality. Basically they fucked up. They hang on to every word they created because to them the word is there in black and white so it must be true.This is the sickness of the human mind identified with the knowledge it has created. Humans are trapped in a world of their own making, hopelessly entangled in a web of deceit born of their own conceptual beliefs as imagined. This madness goes on perpetually as the thoughts of men and woman are found in the form of recorded words archived away in books for future reference to be passed on to future generations to enable the madness to continue on for as long as humans exist.

In Norway and Sweden girls are changing their hair colour from beautiful blonde to black in order to make them selves more unattractive in their futile attempt to ward off being raped by lost and frustrated horny men that believe it is their god given right to fuck anything that lives and breathes anywhere in the world.

I've got a copy of the Quran but I can't be bothered to read it. In my opinion, it's just another fictional fairy story.
In my opinion, the custodian of KNOWLEDGE is not peacful. This extends to every religious believer of every denomination.
Religious and non-religious people alike know through the knowledge they have that there is no peace without war, good without evil.
The human mind of knowledge is trapped in an endless cycle of suffering due to knowledge. The only real solution for the human mind is extinction.

Rumi was a sufi poet, a mystical muslim ..he wrote >

On the seeker’s path, wise men and fools are one.
In His love, brothers and strangers are one.
Go on! Drink the wine of the Beloved!
In that faith, Muslims and pagans are one.

In other words, we're all in this together, we all go down with the sinking ship.
There is no hope for humanity. For that which is born of human thought is destructive.

.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:47 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:30 am That is so direct to the point.
Btw, what is the source of the above, I would be interested to keep that for future reference.

It's from Osho, one of DAM's spiritual teachers (not sure if one is allowed to just copy from his online library though).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

Noted this upon a search:

- From Unconciousness to Consciousness
Chapter 5 by Osho
http://dttj.blogspot.com/2010/06/osho-on-islam.html

In Chapter 5 I found this only;

• Mohammed is the paigambara. He had nine wives. It suits a paigambara, because in those days a person’s prestige was counted by how many wives he had – he had nine wives, and God has chosen him to be his messenger to the world? This man is behaving with the women as if they are cattle. He has no respect for women, he does not believe them to be human beings. But this is nothing.
  
  If you look at his whole life, he was continuously killing, fighting. He was killing to spread the word of God, he was killing to spread the message of peace. The word Islam means peace; that is the name of his religion. He used to carry a sword on which these words were written: ”Peace is my Message.” On the sword, ”Peace is my Message.”
  But there is a condition: if you are converted to Mohammedanism, to Islam, then you are saved; otherwise, it is better for your good that you should be killed, because at least by killing you, you will be prevented from committing many sins. He was compassionate in killing you for your own good. Would you like me to sit with Mohammed?
  
  https://www.oshorajneesh.com/download/o ... usness.pdf

More likely from this source;
http://www.baytallaah.com/osholibrary/r ... sciousness

Thanks for the lead anyway.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:47 am It's from Osho, one of DAM's spiritual teachers

More lies.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:25 am

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:47 am It's from Osho, one of DAM's spiritual teachers

More lies.

And the reason we are at war in our minds is because we believe our own grown lying bullshit.

I hope you die peacefully, and not go down kicking and screaming like a pussy.