What Is Value?
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm
Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
For the discussion of all things philosophical.
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I see I may fall victim to a barbarian horde. Well better that than a democrat.barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
Aint that the truth.Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:22 amI see I may fall victim to a barbarian horde. Well better that than a democrat.barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?![]()
Well sir Nick what interests me is actually the fact that you dare to make such a distinction. Because in all my time on other forums Ive not encountered a single specimen of human who dared to suggest that there are objective values. Well, maybe one or two, but they were not exactly forthcoming with their logic.As I see it there are two sources of values: objective and subjective. Subjective values are created by Man while objective values are part of the universal structure which sustains the function of interacting relative consciousness within our universe
Which one most interests you?
What about physical?surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:46 am The value of something is a subjective measurement of a particular property
The value can be social - cultural - aesthetic - artistic - philosophical - moral
The property can be a type of art - an idea - a structure - an object - a belief system
It rather seems to me that value which is dependent on consensus is subjective, because it can be discussed. Whereas to debate the value of oxygen to any of us would be fruitless.Value is exclusively subjective because it is not at all dependent on either consensus or reason
I think value can be very well understood at the hand of its function.It is something beyond price or function - something that cannot be defined by such limitation
I will explain the concept of objective value superficially to start. No sense in going into depth if the concept is absurd for you. If it makes sense to me doesn't require it making sense to you. No harm no foul. I'm weird and I admit it. Heck I'm a Simone Weil admirer. What could be worse for many?barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:02 amAint that the truth.Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:22 amI see I may fall victim to a barbarian horde. Well better that than a democrat.barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?![]()
Well sir Nick what interests me is actually the fact that you dare to make such a distinction. Because in all my time on other forums Ive not encountered a single specimen of human who dared to suggest that there are objective values. Well, maybe one or two, but they were not exactly forthcoming with their logic.As I see it there are two sources of values: objective and subjective. Subjective values are created by Man while objective values are part of the universal structure which sustains the function of interacting relative consciousness within our universe
Which one most interests you?
So yeah, actually Im vey interested in discussing these. We all know about human values.
What is your understanding of objective values, how can they be known and how can we know they are objective (please dont say "its in the Bible" because Ill be asleep the next moment) and more urgently, what are they?
I for one happen to be very religious, and I believe that some values for me, if I wish to continue to exist with my soul intact, are objective. But thats just to make it known that Im no postmodernist or other type of solipsist.
The universe is structured on levels of reality. The objective value of a given level of being is determined by its vertical distance from the Source of Being. The being of a dog has a higher objective value than a tree because the qualities of trees exist within animals. Dogs and trees exist on the same level of reality but differ in their quality of being which defines their level of reality. Objective value is defined as the middle between the quality of being directly above and below it.Great Chain of Being, also called Chain of Being, conception of the nature of the universe that had a pervasive influence on Western thought, particularly through the ancient Greek Neoplatonists and derivative philosophies during the European Renaissance and the 17th and early 18th centuries. The term denotes three general features of the universe: plenitude, continuity, and gradation. The principle of plenitude states that the universe is “full,” exhibiting the maximal diversity of kinds of existences; everything possible (i.e., not self-contradictory) is actual. The principle of continuity asserts that the universe is composed of an infinite series of forms, each of which shares with its neighbour at least one attribute. According to the principle of linear gradation, this series ranges in hierarchical order from the barest type of existence to the ens perfectissimum, or God............................
Value is a property that allows us to order things accordingly.barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
I like this Simone Weil from what I see.Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:33 am I will explain the concept of objective value superficially to start. No sense in going into depth if the concept is absurd for you. If it makes sense to me doesn't require it making sense to you. No harm no foul. I'm weird and I admit it. Heck I'm a Simone Weil admirer. What could be worse for many?
This is definitely the case.Anyhow, as I understand it, the concept of objective value begins with the question of "being." Objective value is defined as the measure of relative being so at some point a person has to have an idea of what being is and how it is distinct from non-being.
Yes -- everything that is possible by virtue of the nature of the already actual.For now lets define being as existence. For being to be what defines objective value there must be a scale of relative being. People know it as the Great Chain of Being.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Great-Chain-of-Being
Great Chain of Being, also called Chain of Being, conception of the nature of the universe that had a pervasive influence on Western thought, particularly through the ancient Greek Neoplatonists and derivative philosophies during the European Renaissance and the 17th and early 18th centuries. The term denotes three general features of the universe: plenitude, continuity, and gradation. The principle of plenitude states that the universe is “full,” exhibiting the maximal diversity of kinds of existences; everything possible (i.e., not self-contradictory) is actual.
Yes - good; it shares at least one value.The principle of continuity asserts that the universe is composed of an infinite series of forms, each of which shares with its neighbour at least one attribute.
Could you elaborate on the nature of the bares type of existence? Do you mean a hydrogen atom? Or a photon?According to the principle of linear gradation, this series ranges in hierarchical order from the barest type of existence to the ens perfectissimum, or God............................
Ah here I find disagreement.The universe is structured on levels of reality. The objective value of a given level of being is determined by its vertical distance from the Source of Being. The being of a dog has a higher objective value than a tree because the qualities of trees exist within animals.
Hmm, so here we differ. I do not believe the part can have a view of the whole. So one can only establish value at ones own junction.Dogs and trees exist on the same level of reality but differ in their quality of being which defines their level of reality. Objective value is defined as the middle between the quality of being directly above and below it.
Could you indicate a question which has been answered in this way? I do not want to outright reject your model as a lot of sound thought has apparently gone into it.Once a person becomes open to the concept of being and the hierarchy of values within the Great Chain of Being, it answers a lot of questions impossible without it.
I can agree to this definition as being at least pertinent to the question I asked - you define value in terms of a hierarchy of reality. So the most objectively valuable being is the being which is most real by any standards.Objective value is a measure of relative being while subjective values are interpretations of the experience of being or existence.
From another link on the chain of being: This chart describes the hierarchy. It could be taken further for example to describe atoms within atoms but the chart is sufficient to describe the visible worldAccording to the principle of linear gradation, this series ranges in hierarchical order from the barest type of existence to the ens perfectissimum, or God............................
Could you elaborate on the nature of the bares type of existence? Do you mean a hydrogen atom? Or a photon?
As an aside it is normal for people to believe we are alone in the universe which is just silly. How can something so enormous and intricate only exhibit one quality of life? The angelic realms and the demiurge are just common sense.Indeed, each link in the Great Chain of Being represented a distinct category of living creature or form of matter. Those creatures or things higher on the Chain possessed greater intellect, movement, and ability than those placed below. Thus each being in the Chain possessed all of the attributes of what was below plus an additional, superior attribute:
God: existence + life + will + reason + immortality + omniscient, omnipotent
Angels: existence + life + will + reason + immortality
Humanity: existence + life + will + reason
Animals: existence + life + will
Plants: existence + life
Matter: existence
Nothingness
But from the point of view of the above chart the dog is capable of will the tree lacks. It is what defines value to universal existenceAh here I find disagreement.
A dog doesn't possess the same mechanisms of photosynthesis, doesn't possess the same sap, doesn't harbour the same power of pressures that exist in a tree - I am not a believer of such linear ranking of beings.
Here are two examples. How do we explain miracles? Levels of reality provide a realistic explanation of a miracle. From this perspective a miracle is a phenomenon normal for a higher level of reality taking place at a lower..Once a person becomes open to the concept of being and the hierarchy of values within the Great Chain of Being, it answers a lot of questions impossible without it.
Could you indicate a question which has been answered in this way? I do not want to outright reject your model as a lot of sound thought has apparently gone into it.
How elegant! She describes animal life including animal Man as a cosmic necessity – a creature of reaction. She wrote of a higher conscious quality normal for conscious Man. This is our potential for the evolution of human being. Conscious Man has higher objective value than animal Man. Conscious Man is closer to the source of our being and also capable of consciousness animal Man as a creature of reaction has in potential. This difference describes objective value.“Man can never escape obedience to God. A creature cannot not obey. The only choice offered to man as an intelligent and free creature, is to desire obedience or not to desire it. If he does not desire it, he perpetually obeys nevertheless, as a thing subject to mechanical necessity. If he does desire obedience, he remains subject to mechanical necessity, but a new necessity is added on, a necessity constituted by the laws that are proper to supernatural things. Certain actions become impossible for him, while others happen through him, sometimes despite him.”
Excerpt from: Thoughts without order concerning the love of God, in an essay entitled L'amour de Dieu et le malheur (The Love of God and affliction). Simone Weil
Value can be defined as nothing.barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
Basic assumptions that imprint our ability to assume, or the connection of one assumption to another with that connection of assumptions forming our identity as a "form".barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
As a context in itself...yes.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:08 amValue can be defined as nothing.barbarianhorde wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
.
Hey NickNick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:50 am Bbh
For what it is worth, I appreciate that these observations haven’t provoked the negativity that they often do so we can discuss ideas.
From another link on the chain of being: This chart describes the hierarchy. It could be taken further for example to describe atoms within atoms but the chart is sufficient to describe the visible worldAccording to the principle of linear gradation, this series ranges in hierarchical order from the barest type of existence to the ens perfectissimum, or God............................
Could you elaborate on the nature of the bares type of existence? Do you mean a hydrogen atom? Or a photon?
http://faculty.grandview.edu/ssnyder/12 ... 0chain.htm
As an aside it is normal for people to believe we are alone in the universe which is just silly. How can something so enormous and intricate only exhibit one quality of life? The angelic realms and the demiurge are just common sense.Indeed, each link in the Great Chain of Being represented a distinct category of living creature or form of matter. Those creatures or things higher on the Chain possessed greater intellect, movement, and ability than those placed below. Thus each being in the Chain possessed all of the attributes of what was below plus an additional, superior attribute:
God: existence + life + will + reason + immortality + omniscient, omnipotent
Angels: existence + life + will + reason + immortality
Humanity: existence + life + will + reason
Animals: existence + life + will
Plants: existence + life
Matter: existence
Nothingness
The universe is structured on levels of reality. The objective value of a given level of being is determined by its vertical distance from the Source of Being. The being of a dog has a higher objective value than a tree because the qualities of trees exist within animals.
But from the point of view of the above chart the dog is capable of will the tree lacks. It is what defines value to universal existenceAh here I find disagreement.
A dog doesn't possess the same mechanisms of photosynthesis, doesn't possess the same sap, doesn't harbour the same power of pressures that exist in a tree - I am not a believer of such linear ranking of beings.
In the episteme of cognition the only standard for a hierarchy is ones own place in it.
Yes, but suppose this place can change by evolving from one quality of being into a higher? If it can it would explain the purpose of the essence of religion
Here are two examples. How do we explain miracles? Levels of reality provide a realistic explanation of a miracle. From this perspective a miracle is a phenomenon normal for a higher level of reality taking place at a lower..Once a person becomes open to the concept of being and the hierarchy of values within the Great Chain of Being, it answers a lot of questions impossible without it.
Could you indicate a question which has been answered in this way? I do not want to outright reject your model as a lot of sound thought has apparently gone into it.
Another more controversial example is the idea of Man’s conscious evolution. Most agree that mechanical evolution has taken place on earth. People can debate that the great living machine called organic life on earth was an intentional action but the point is that once the great machine begins to function it doesn’t require consciousness.
The hypothesis of conscious evolution asserts that Man is unique to life on earth in that it can make the transition from mechanical life serving a mechanical “necessity” and conscious life serving a conscious purpose. Simone Weil describes what I mean:
How elegant! She describes animal life including animal Man as a cosmic necessity – a creature of reaction. She wrote of a higher conscious quality normal for conscious Man. This is our potential for the evolution of human being. Conscious Man has higher objective value than animal Man. Conscious Man is closer to the source of our being and also capable of consciousness animal Man as a creature of reaction has in potential. This difference describes objective value.“Man can never escape obedience to God. A creature cannot not obey. The only choice offered to man as an intelligent and free creature, is to desire obedience or not to desire it. If he does not desire it, he perpetually obeys nevertheless, as a thing subject to mechanical necessity. If he does desire obedience, he remains subject to mechanical necessity, but a new necessity is added on, a necessity constituted by the laws that are proper to supernatural things. Certain actions become impossible for him, while others happen through him, sometimes despite him.”
Excerpt from: Thoughts without order concerning the love of God, in an essay entitled L'amour de Dieu et le malheur (The Love of God and affliction). Simone Weil
Thank you to you to. Since I'm on a roll I may as leave you with one more observation.All in all a great set of replies, thank you.
Since we have become closed to the experience of objective value society has become limited to arguing subjective morality. Einstein was right but my experiences with what happens in society as a whole convinces me that objective conscience will only be experienced by a small minority insufficient to alter the course of what must happen without it.1954
“We will be destroyed unless we create a cosmic conscience. And we have to begin to do that on an individual level, with the youth that are the politicians of tomorrow…. But no one, and certainly no state, can take over the responsibility that the individual has to his conscience.” Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 141. Conversation in Summer of 1954)