Philosophy Now Forum

What is NOW? Do you only define it as the national organization of women or does it have a deeper meaning, a deeper reality?

We can say something is happening now but what separates it from the past and the future? Maybe it doesn't exist. But if it doesn't exist what do we sense?

Imagine yourself standing in a field. You begin to see a plane coming from the south. It is coming from the future. It passes overhead and is now in the present. Then it disappears into the northern horizon and into the past. Yet for those on the plane they experienced the totality of what you experienced as now.

IYO how would you define NOW? Does it have an objective existence beyond our perception or is now limited to just a subjective meaningless measure of the passage of time?

My take on it:
Now can not be defined - it can only be pointed at.
A pointer would be: Now is not the past and not the future. Now is not a concept. Now = Reality

AlexW wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:59 am My take on it:
Now can not be defined - it can only be pointed at.
A pointer would be: Now is not the past and not the future. Now is not a concept. Now = Reality

Are you saying that the passage of time doesn't exist in reality so neither can the relationship between the past and the future?

Nick wrote:
Are you saying that the passage of time doesnt exist in reality so neither can the relationship between the past and the future ?

I think there is only the eternal NOW and the past is NOW that has already happened and the future is NOW that has yet to happen
But because of Special Relativity and the finite speed of light there are an infinity of NOWS rather than just the one absolute NOW

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:20 am Are you saying that the passage of time doesn't exist in reality so neither can the relationship between the past and the future?

Yes, pretty much.
The passage of time exists only once thought is evoked - it is part of the map of reality - but reality knows nothing of it.
Neither does it know of any relationships - how could there be any relationships if all there is, is it?

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:28 am

Nick wrote:
Are you saying that the passage of time doesnt exist in reality so neither can the relationship between the past and the future ?

I think there is only the eternal NOW and the past is NOW that has already happened and the future is NOW that has yet to happen
But because of Special Relativity and the finite speed of light there are an infinity of NOWS rather than just the one absolute NOW

I'm a bit confused. How large is the past you refer to as NOW? How large is the present which distinguishes the past from the future? What is the eternal NOW?

AlexW wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:39 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:20 am Are you saying that the passage of time doesn't exist in reality so neither can the relationship between the past and the future?

Yes, pretty much.
The passage of time exists only once thought is evoked - it is part of the map of reality - but reality knows nothing of it.
Neither does it know of any relationships - how could there be any relationships if all there is, is it?

We would agree that a dog is born, exists, and dies in linear time. If the dog's life only exists once thought is evoked, what is the source of this thought?

Nick wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:

Nick wrote:
Are you saying that the passage of time doesnt exist in reality so neither can the relationship between the past and the future ?

I think there is only the eternal NOW and the past is NOW that has already happened and the future is NOW that has yet to happen
But because of Special Relativity and the finite speed of light there are an infinity of NOWS rather than just the one absolute NOW

How large is the past you refer to as NOW ? How large is the present which distinguishes the past from the future ? What is the eternal NOW ?

There is no such thing as the past or the future only the eternal NOW. The past and future exist as concepts not as actualities
The present is eternal and is probably continuous rather than discrete although this can only be known at the quantum level

The eternal NOW also exists differently for particles with zero rest mass such as photons for example as they do not experience time at all
Anything that cannot approach the speed of light has to experience time and so the eternal NOW has to exist for this reason if nothing else
Motion and entropy also cannot occur without time which is a measure of change between events which can occur within the eternal NOW

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:56 am We would agree that a dog is born, exists, and dies in linear time. If the dog's life only exists once thought is evoked, what is the source of this thought?

All you can state about a dogs life, or really anything that happens in time, is what your memory reveals to you.
So, yes, a dogs life, just like your life, exists only as memories - once thought is evoked.
What is the source of thought?
I don’t know. A thought, not it’s conceptual interpretation, simply arises. No one is creating it, it happens spontaneously, like all of life happens spontaneously.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:54 am What is NOW? Do you only define it as the national organization of women or does it have a deeper meaning, a deeper reality?

We can say something is happening now but what separates it from the past and the future? Maybe it doesn't exist. But if it doesn't exist what do we sense?

Imagine yourself standing in a field. You begin to see a plane coming from the south. It is coming from the future. It passes overhead and is now in the present. Then it disappears into the northern horizon and into the past. Yet for those on the plane they experienced the totality of what you experienced as now.

IYO how would you define NOW? Does it have an objective existence beyond our perception or is now limited to just a subjective meaningless measure of the passage of time?

Every NOW must have another NOW before it to be valid and defined. So time cannot stretch back indefinitely as it would be missing an initial NOW (time would not exist without an initial NOW - all the other NOWs would be undefined). The only possible configuration is the first NOW is preceded by the last NOW. Time is a circle. Then the start of time is caused by the end of time. Big Crunch causes Big Bang.

By this argument, time is eternal, and NOW is just a pointer to the current time.

devans99 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:43 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:54 am What is NOW? Do you only define it as the national organization of women or does it have a deeper meaning, a deeper reality?

We can say something is happening now but what separates it from the past and the future? Maybe it doesn't exist. But if it doesn't exist what do we sense?

Imagine yourself standing in a field. You begin to see a plane coming from the south. It is coming from the future. It passes overhead and is now in the present. Then it disappears into the northern horizon and into the past. Yet for those on the plane they experienced the totality of what you experienced as now.

IYO how would you define NOW? Does it have an objective existence beyond our perception or is now limited to just a subjective meaningless measure of the passage of time?

Every NOW must have another NOW before it to be valid and defined. So time cannot stretch back indefinitely as it would be missing an initial NOW (time would not exist without an initial NOW - all the other NOWs would be undefined). The only possible configuration is the first NOW is preceded by the last NOW. Time is a circle. Then the start of time is caused by the end of time. Big Crunch causes Big Bang.

By this argument, time is eternal, and NOW is just a pointer to the current time.

If I understand you right, NOW doesn't exist for you. Since time is a circle and we can see that a circle has no definite beginning or end, NOW can only be an arbitrary point along the continuum of existence but NOW doesn't exist in reality. Am I right?

AlexW wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:04 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:56 am We would agree that a dog is born, exists, and dies in linear time. If the dog's life only exists once thought is evoked, what is the source of this thought?

All you can state about a dogs life, or really anything that happens in time, is what your memory reveals to you.
So, yes, a dogs life, just like your life, exists only as memories - once thought is evoked.
What is the source of thought?
I don’t know. A thought, not it’s conceptual interpretation, simply arises. No one is creating it, it happens spontaneously, like all of life happens spontaneously.

Would you say then that a kalpa as a cycle cannot exist simply because there is no one to remember it?

Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:36 pm

devans99 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:43 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:54 am What is NOW? Do you only define it as the national organization of women or does it have a deeper meaning, a deeper reality?

We can say something is happening now but what separates it from the past and the future? Maybe it doesn't exist. But if it doesn't exist what do we sense?

Imagine yourself standing in a field. You begin to see a plane coming from the south. It is coming from the future. It passes overhead and is now in the present. Then it disappears into the northern horizon and into the past. Yet for those on the plane they experienced the totality of what you experienced as now.

IYO how would you define NOW? Does it have an objective existence beyond our perception or is now limited to just a subjective meaningless measure of the passage of time?

Every NOW must have another NOW before it to be valid and defined. So time cannot stretch back indefinitely as it would be missing an initial NOW (time would not exist without an initial NOW - all the other NOWs would be undefined). The only possible configuration is the first NOW is preceded by the last NOW. Time is a circle. Then the start of time is caused by the end of time. Big Crunch causes Big Bang.

By this argument, time is eternal, and NOW is just a pointer to the current time.

If I understand you right, NOW doesn't exist for you. Since time is a circle and we can see that a circle has no definite beginning or end, NOW can only be an arbitrary point along the continuum of existence but NOW doesn't exist in reality. Am I right?

Not sure but I imagine 'now' as a cursor pointing to a piece of time. So now is always pointing to some point on the circle of time but now is not real; it's the circle of time is real. IE time is a dimension like space and now is just a pointer/cursor.

We have a 'here' pointer for space, why not a 'now' pointer for time?

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:51 am

Nick wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:

I think there is only the eternal NOW and the past is NOW that has already happened and the future is NOW that has yet to happen
But because of Special Relativity and the finite speed of light there are an infinity of NOWS rather than just the one absolute NOW

How large is the past you refer to as NOW ? How large is the present which distinguishes the past from the future ? What is the eternal NOW ?

There is no such thing as the past or the future only the eternal NOW. The past and future exist as concepts not as actualities
The present is eternal and is probably continuous rather than discrete although this can only be known at the quantum level

The eternal NOW also exists differently for particles with zero rest mass such as photons for example as they do not experience time at all
Anything that cannot approach the speed of light has to experience time and so the eternal NOW has to exist for this reason if nothing else
Motion and entropy also cannot occur without time which is a measure of change between events which can occur within the eternal NOW

This is worth going into deeper if you are willing. For example, consider the ancient symbol of the cross. I've learned that the vertical line represents the line of the scale of being itself or what was known in ancient times as the Great Chain of Being. The vertical flow of life forces along this vertical line is known as vertical time or the repetition of a moment. The vertical line is the expression of NOW so is not limited by linear time and space

The vertical line in contrast is intersected by the horizontal line of the process of existence within linear time. From this perspective the process of existence in linear time moves through being rather than being moving along subjective linear time as normally perceived by us during the process of our existence.

If this is true, NOW IS while existence is a PROCESS limited by time and space occurring within the Eternal NOW. Does this correspond with what you've posted?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:41 pm happens spontaneously.

Would you say then that a kalpa as a cycle cannot exist simply because there is no one to remember it?

Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.

I think the idea of "kalpa" was used trying to fit the absolute/eternal into the interpretative workings of the mind. Using an unthinkably huge number accompanied by a metaphor that blows your mind is as close as thought can get to the non-dual absolute. Its a way of pointing at, not defining, the undefinable, the unknowable. But, again, even this definition seems to get close to the real “thing” it is still infinitely far away from reality. Its like science, by becoming more and more advanced, seemingly closing in on truthfully explaining the workings of reality - alas, it will never reach this point. It can't, simply because it operates in a realm that doesn’t touch reality - again, it’s like making a map so intricately detailed that it seems to describe the territory in all it’s perfection, but no matter how detailed it becomes, it will and can never be the territory. Only the territory is alive, the map is a dead thing - this will never change.