Philosophy Now Forum

To me it seems contrary.

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:38 pm To me it seems contrary.

Gravity, energy, and various abstract things do not have obvious physical forms but they can be detected within various Framework and System [F&S], in this case the Scientific F&S.
So it depends on the reliability and credibility of the Framework and System used.

'Soul' is quite a loose term so it need to be defined.
I presumed your 'soul' refer to an entity [permanent soul] within a person that can survive physical death.

As far as the Scientific Framework and System, no one has been able to prove the existence of the soul.

It is the same within the Theological Framework and System, no one is able to prove the existence of the soul convincingly.

I believe the idea of the permanent soul can be explained as an illusion reified within the Psychological Framework and System driven to soothe desperate existential impulses.

Canary in the coal mine is a way to detect formless death.

How can something which has no form or soul be detected, setting aside another topic of defining these concepts?

The question implies, that which has form or no form, soul or no soul, can be detected. This means that detection doesn’t necessarily depend on form or soul.

Both form and formless are detectable by unexplainable effects upon phenomena.

When the effects are eventually explained, then the cause of the effect is spotted as a formed ship on the horizon, or it's given the form of concept, such as “sun spots,” which are linked to free energy from the universe, which causes most everything since food is actually stored formless, soulless sunshine.

There is no centre of perception. Perception is the lens through which consciousness peeks, limited in perspective. In Human.....it manifests as the I Amness. The local you yearn for is beyond the illusion of I am. It is the trackless / unnamed. It is the Natural-allness upon which a new born baby first opens it's eyes.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:01 am There is no centre of perception. Perception is the lens through which consciousness peeks, limited in perspective. In Human.....it manifests as the I Amness. The local you yearn for is beyond the illusion of I am. It is the trackless / unnamed. It is the Natural-allness upon which a new born baby first opens it's eyes.

Your views are delusional.

Whatever views are raised all you do is to deny it, i.e.

• self? there is no self
  perception? there is no perception,
  knowing? there is no knowing
  fucking? there is no fucking
  ?? there is no ??
  whatever? there is no whatever

even a small kid can use your format to deny anything and claim to be a genius.

First one must realise that they are the I Am.
They must realise that their entire perceived reality is a conceptual overlay and that the I-Amness is it's geocentric centre around which the dream of separation revolves.

From that understanding can come the apperception that if they are aware of the I am...
-they could not be it.

The centre breaks free......identification shifts and I-Amness becomes everywhere.
In actuality they are that Mystery which is aware of the I Am.

The centre is everywhere and the circumference is nowhere.

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:01 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:38 pm To me it seems contrary.

Gravity, energy, and various abstract things do not have obvious physical forms but they can be detected within various Framework and System [F&S], in this case the Scientific F&S.
So it depends on the reliability and credibility of the Framework and System used.

Gravity is the result of deformation of space-time. Energy is the result of form in electromagnetic field. There are particles related to both gravity and energy, graviton and photon respectively.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:01 am 'Soul' is quite a loose term so it need to be defined.
I presumed your 'soul' refer to an entity [permanent soul] within a person that can survive physical death.

I am not sure about life after death. I define soul as an entity which gives life to physical object.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:01 am As far as the Scientific Framework and System, no one has been able to prove the existence of the soul.

I agree.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:01 am It is the same within the Theological Framework and System, no one is able to prove the existence of the soul convincingly.

I haven't seen any proof either. I however have a proof that material mind cannot exist.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:01 am I believe the idea of the permanent soul can be explained as an illusion reified within the Psychological Framework and System driven to soothe desperate existential impulses.

I don't think that physicalism can give an answer to idea of mind.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:10 am Canary in the coal mine is a way to detect formless death.

You mean monoxide-carbon?

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:10 am How can something which has no form or soul be detected, setting aside another topic of defining these concepts?

By soul I mean an entity which gives life to physical object.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:10 am The question implies, that which has form or no form, soul or no soul, can be detected. This means that detection doesn’t necessarily depend on form or soul.

How so?

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:10 am Both form and formless are detectable by unexplainable effects upon phenomena.

Yes, if we could distinguish between form-full and formless effects upon phenomena.

I'm just working within the logic of your question, which makes some assumptions.

For instance, you assume something with no form, can be.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:51 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:01 am I believe the idea of the permanent soul can be explained as an illusion reified within the Psychological Framework and System driven to soothe desperate existential impulses.

I don't think that physicalism can give an answer to idea of mind.

I was referring to psychology not physicalism.

Why people believe in a soul that will survive after death is due to psychology.

The body itself could work as a soul. Then again where is the I located in the brain. The puzzle dont seem to fit. So you will have to exhaust every physicalist avenue first. And then what remains must be true.

osgart wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:16 am The body itself could work as a soul. Then again where is the I located in the brain. The puzzle dont seem to fit. So you will have to exhaust every physicalist avenue first. And then what remains must be true.

You forgot what remains after all physicalist elements are eliminated is actually the psychological impulses of the brain.

But the brain is also a physicalist element so that too must be removed.

I wasn't aware of a brain in my direct experience that ever suffered from psychological issues. How strange!

Please tell me, where is this brain occurring?

Ramu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:10 pm But the brain is also a physicalist element so that too must be removed.

If you remove the brain/mind, how can you arrive at the above conclusion.

I wasn't aware of a brain in my direct experience that ever suffered from psychological issues. How strange!

Please tell me, where is this brain occurring?

Without a brain/mind you would not have any 'direct experience' at all.

Note a person in coma or sleeping would not be aware [conscious] of his brain, but as long as he is not officially dead, the active brain/mind [minimal] is still there.
Another observer can see his brain in a surgery or the activities of his brain/mind in an fMRI or monitor.

In your case, you may be in a no-self state, but that is only no-conscious-self which give you the illusion there is no-self at all. As long as you are not dead there is always the empirical-self. The point is you are ignorant that your empirical-self have a hierarchy of selves ranging from different levels of the conscious to the subconscious self.
In a no-self state [altered state of consciousness] the normal convention consciousness is switch off temporary a bit longer than in a split second orgasm which could linger thereafter.

Thus in a no-me state, it is a no-conscious-me, actually it is no-normal_conscious-me. The no-me is merely an altered-state-of-normal-consciousness.
In one sense a no-self or no-me state is like one is in a drunken state but the degree of alertness is different.

Note a no-self or no-me state can also be easily induced by drugs, hallucinogen, etc.
It can also happen easily to the mentally sick, those suffering from brain damage, those who meditate, etc.

There is nothing significantly special with a no-self, no-me state when it is seen in its respective context.

Ramu wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:10 pm But the brain is also a physicalist element so that too must be removed.

I wasn't aware of a brain in my direct experience that ever suffered from psychological issues. How strange!

Please tell me, where is this brain occurring?

A brain is an organic receiver of thought forms.

Thoughts themselves are form. Thought forms. Thought forms exist. A building can exist as a form composed of atoms and molecules, and the same building can exist as a thought form. A thought form is not the same as an atomic form, it is more subtle, which is why thought forms and atomic forms are distinguished one from the other by language. A form can be detected by its effects upon reality, and thought forms certainly do affect reality. Walk though a big city such as NYC, and if you’re not near a park then every compounded thing that you perceive, other than perhaps sky, air, or sunshine, first existed as a thought form, and has been given sensory perceivable shape by thought forms.

Where's the transmitter?

*

A thought form is a different type of physicality, but it shares characteristics with other forms of the same thing. For example, atomic-form water, written-form water, and thought-form water, all are the same thing, but different, and each realm can affect the other if transmitter and receiver are tuned to the same frequency, such as with a common language.

The thought form of water travels from me, to you, and vice versa. For instance, if I write something and you proceed to do that thing, like, why don’t you drink a cold glass of water, then this is verification that the thought form of drinking water has traveled from one noggin, across time and space for unknown time or distance, to be received as a thought. The transmogrification from one realm to another occurs when that transported thought becomes a cold, sweating glass of ice-water being consumed, an act triggering the subsequent memory of this thought, now.

The transmission and reception of the thought can exist in one of three relationships:
They can be clearly joined together.
They can joined by static in either the sending or receiving.
They can be not connected, either never joined or disconnected.

A variety of permutations flow from this:
- Clear transmission, clear reception.
- Clear transmission, poor reception.
- Poor transmission, poor reception.
- Poor transmission, clear reception.
- Clear transmission, no reception.
- Poor transmission, no reception.