Philosophy Now Forum

Illusions are, so how can they be impossible?

That which is known IS...but that which is KNOWN cannot know /be known ..for that would be twice knowing which is impossible.

Knowing IS, is possible. Therefore there is no such notion of impossible knowing.

Knowing is all knowing, there is nothing separate from this direct boundless knowing.

To deny that would require something outside of this direct knowing, which is impossible, so in knowing.. there is no such thing as impossible knowing.

Knowing is not known by a ''someone'', you are the knowing that cannot be known twice.

This is all God. God is not a ''some thing'' God is not and then some.. God is Everything and No thing in the same instant.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:58 pm Illusions are, so how can they be impossible?

That which is known IS...but that which is KNOWN cannot know /be known ..for that would be twice knowing which is impossible.

Knowing IS, is possible. Therefore there is no such notion of impossible knowing.

Knowing is all knowing, there is nothing separate from this direct boundless knowing.

To deny that would require something outside of this direct knowing, which is impossible, so in knowing.. there is no such thing as impossible knowing.

Knowing is not known by a ''someone'', you are the knowing that cannot be known twice.

This is all God. God is not a ''some thing'' God is not and then some.. God is Everything and No thing in the same instant.

I don't think it is your intention but your OP concluded you admit being delusional.

• Delusional:
  -characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
  -based on or having faulty judgement; mistaken.

Take this example of a pencil dipped in water;


To a person who is not familiar with that situation, he will insist there is a real bent pencil.
In a given situation, the person would not have hesitated to declare to the whole world that the pencil he saw [as above] was really a bent pencil.

However for a person who have been shown the real pencil by pulling it up from the water and given a lesson on the principles of refraction, he would have understood he had experienced a real illusion which has deceived him of the reality of the pencil.
So a pencil illusion is not impossible to be demonstrated and known.

The God illusion is based on the same principles as the bent-pencil-water-illusion.
The God that the theists claimed is real is an illusion like a bent-pencil-water-illusion generating a false reality that there is a real bent-pencil.
Thus the God that theist claim is real is not a real thing, that supposedly real God is actually an illusion generated in the mind.

It is not easy to convince theists that 'real' God as claimed by them is an illusion because the elements involved are transcendental thoughts.
In addition this transcendental illusion of a 'real' God is highly leveraged upon desperate fears, anxieties, dread and despairs. These sufferings are relieved with a belief in God. A theist cannot admit their God is not real or they are affected by an illusion because that will bring back all the existential sufferings.
That is the reason theists will insist their God is a real God and will deny God is a resultant of a process of an illusion in the brain.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:18 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:58 pm Illusions are, so how can they be impossible?

That which is known IS...but that which is KNOWN cannot know /be known ..for that would be twice knowing which is impossible.

Knowing IS, is possible. Therefore there is no such notion of impossible knowing.

Knowing is all knowing, there is nothing separate from this direct boundless knowing.

To deny that would require something outside of this direct knowing, which is impossible, so in knowing.. there is no such thing as impossible knowing.

Knowing is not known by a ''someone'', you are the knowing that cannot be known twice.

This is all God. God is not a ''some thing'' God is not and then some.. God is Everything and No thing in the same instant.

I don't think it is your intention but your OP concluded you admit being delusional.

• Delusional:
  -characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
  -based on or having faulty judgement; mistaken.

Take this example of a pencil dipped in water;


To a person who is not familiar with that situation, he will insist there is a real bent pencil.
In a given situation, the person would not have hesitated to declare to the whole world that the pencil he saw [as above] was really a bent pencil.

However for a person who have been shown the real pencil by pulling it up from the water and given a lesson on the principles of refraction, he would have understood he had experienced a real illusion which has deceived him of the reality of the pencil.
So a pencil illusion is not impossible to be demonstrated and known.

The God illusion is based on the same principles as the bent-pencil-water-illusion.
The God that the theists claimed is real is an illusion like a bent-pencil-water-illusion generating a false reality that there is a real bent-pencil.
Thus the God that theist claim is real is not a real thing, that supposedly real God is actually an illusion generated in the mind.

It is not easy to convince theists that 'real' God as claimed by them is an illusion because the elements involved are transcendental thoughts.
In addition this transcendental illusion of a 'real' God is highly leveraged upon desperate fears, anxieties, dread and despairs. These sufferings are relieved with a belief in God. A theist cannot admit their God is not real or they are affected by an illusion because that will bring back all the existential sufferings.
That is the reason theists will insist their God is a real God and will deny God is a resultant of a process of an illusion in the brain.

The illusion is real.

There is no one looking out of your eyes, and yet, looking is.

To a person who is not familiar with that situation, he will insist there is a real bent pencil.

No entity can ride your back unless its bent.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:43 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:18 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:58 pm Illusions are, so how can they be impossible?

That which is known IS...but that which is KNOWN cannot know /be known ..for that would be twice knowing which is impossible.

Knowing IS, is possible. Therefore there is no such notion of impossible knowing.

Knowing is all knowing, there is nothing separate from this direct boundless knowing.

To deny that would require something outside of this direct knowing, which is impossible, so in knowing.. there is no such thing as impossible knowing.

Knowing is not known by a ''someone'', you are the knowing that cannot be known twice.

This is all God. God is not a ''some thing'' God is not and then some.. God is Everything and No thing in the same instant.

I don't think it is your intention but your OP concluded you admit being delusional.

• Delusional:
  -characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
  -based on or having faulty judgement; mistaken.

Take this example of a pencil dipped in water;


To a person who is not familiar with that situation, he will insist there is a real bent pencil.
In a given situation, the person would not have hesitated to declare to the whole world that the pencil he saw [as above] was really a bent pencil.

However for a person who have been shown the real pencil by pulling it up from the water and given a lesson on the principles of refraction, he would have understood he had experienced a real illusion which has deceived him of the reality of the pencil.
So a pencil illusion is not impossible to be demonstrated and known.

The God illusion is based on the same principles as the bent-pencil-water-illusion.
The God that the theists claimed is real is an illusion like a bent-pencil-water-illusion generating a false reality that there is a real bent-pencil.
Thus the God that theist claim is real is not a real thing, that supposedly real God is actually an illusion generated in the mind.

It is not easy to convince theists that 'real' God as claimed by them is an illusion because the elements involved are transcendental thoughts.
In addition this transcendental illusion of a 'real' God is highly leveraged upon desperate fears, anxieties, dread and despairs. These sufferings are relieved with a belief in God. A theist cannot admit their God is not real or they are affected by an illusion because that will bring back all the existential sufferings.
That is the reason theists will insist their God is a real God and will deny God is a resultant of a process of an illusion in the brain.

The illusion is real.

So what??
The illusion is obviously real to
1. -those who had shown understand it is an illusion
2. -those who understand the principles of refraction,
3. -those who understand the neuro-psychological aspects of it.
This is not the issue at all.

What is critical in this example is those who are not the above [1-3] and insist there is a real bent-pencil in the water when in reality there is no real bent-pencil.
Similarly, in this case, when you insist God is real, you are like the person who insist there is a real bent-pencil due to the ignorance of the illusory process that is going on.
Point is the God illusion is too complex for you to understand despite my attempt to explain due to very strong psychological resistance to the truth. The truth to this is potentially very painful and your subconscious knows that, thus the subliminal resistance.

There is no one looking out of your eyes, and yet, looking is.
To a person who is not familiar with that situation, he will insist there is a real bent pencil.
No entity can ride your back unless its bent.

N/A.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:40 amwhen you insist God is real

There is no one or thing to insist God is real.


There is only no one /thing insisting God is real.

The illusion is real.

Nothing is real.


How many more times are you going to try and analyse what can only be a direct experience that no one is having?

You are like a worn out record, and so am I.

That's the nature of source energy ..it just wants /desires, to express itself when ever, how ever, and in whatever that energy appears to manifest itself as...there is no one to stop it, no one to start it, its free to dance like the trees in the wind, which ever which way the wind blows

This is known as observed...who or what is observing...I have no idea.

.

Energy exists and as we are made from energy then we also exist and everything that exists is made from energy too
The illusion of reality must therefore be real or else energy itself is an illusion which would mean nothing truly exists

Death occurs in every living thing but the energy that they are made from will simply carry on existing in another form
It is therefore a release or transference of energy so in that particular sense it can be said that nothing ever truly dies

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:09 am Energy exists and as we are made from energy then we also exist and everything that exists is made from energy too
The illusion of reality must therefore be real or else energy itself is an illusion which would mean nothing truly exists

I agree, but AV has this really strange belief that there are people who believe in a God that are willing to die and kill other people for the sake of that belief. That belief in a God is what causes the separation illusion in the first place, to think there is a someone who is willing to kill another someone for their belief in another something..is just plain daft, its delusional and irrational thinking...

All the killing of others is just the killing of yourself, there is no separate self to kill...you cannot kill yourself because there is no you to kill you...its all the same energy living and dying for itself. There is no separate entity killing another separate entity which is what AV seems to think and believe, that's how his views are coming accross anyways.

He doesn't see that its all just a made up fictional belief, and that its just this immediate flow of energy applying an energetic feature within this energetic field of infinite energy itself, there is nothing more to it than just the energetic belief. All there is in life is energy or what ever you want to call it, call it spirit or what ever, its all the same source energy appearing in different forms, and part of that form is a belief.
To say there is a person that believes in God.. Is like saying electricity believes in God, AV is completely lost in the story land of beliefs.He doesn't see that this is all formless energy manifesting itself and here it is..it doesn't need no middle man ..but then to believe that these appearances actually have any power in and of their own is ridiculous ...Reality doesn't belong to any one or thing....is all relative and appearances. This Energy that manifests as appearances couldn't care less about evil or fighting in the name of itself, this is all total BS that belongs to the power of the mind when it starts to believe itself as a real separate entity, even though this is inseparable from energy that is everything and nothing...when that belief takes hold too tight, it cannot let go..so takes over the drivers seat and takes on a mind of its own.. thats the power of belief, thats the power of the mind, its a trickster into making no one believe it is someone.

It's like energy the stuff that is all stuff believing in this extra separate energy force apart from itself so it then has to go on this mighty mission to eradicate the what it sees as the opposing energy force, because it wants to be the only energy force in reality, so it believes this other energy force is a threat to it...it so strongly believes in its own created delusion that it will die and kill all other energies that dare to get in its way of being the only energy in power...so it becomes a ruthless ruler, it becomes a dictator in the name of that inferior energy force it believes to exist, when its all the same one energy.
It's absolutely ludicrus to think that energy can do that, or even has the desire to do that. This is the mindset that is the mind of AV

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:09 amDeath occurs in every living thing but the energy that they are made from will simply carry on existing in another form
It is therefore a release or transference of energy so in that particular sense it can be said that nothing ever truly dies

Yes, I agree with you.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Death occurs in every living thing but the energy that they are made from will simply carry on existing in another form
It is therefore a release or transference of energy so in that particular sense it can be said that nothing ever truly dies

But there is another definition of death which is the ending of consciousness and in that sense I definitely do die
So I can be dead in one state and not dead in another but for me the ending of consciousness is effectively death

To me it is a transition from existence to non existence and I have no reason to fear it as the fear is very irrational

Dontaskme wrote:
It is like energy the stuff that is all stuff believing in this extra separate energy force apart from itself so it then has to go on this mighty mission
to eradicate the what it sees as the opposing energy force because it wants to be the only energy force in reality so it believes this other energy
force is a threat to it .... it so strongly believes in its own created delusion that it will die and kill all other energies that dare to get in its way
of being the only energy in power .... so it becomes a ruthless ruler it becomes a dictator in the name of that inferior energy force it believes
to exist when its all the same one energy

The problem here is that we do not think of ourselves as energy but as human beings instead
Even those of us who know that we are energy do not always think of ourselves in that way
But what a revolution in thinking it would be if we actually did all start to think that way

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:23 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:40 amwhen you insist God is real

There is no one or thing to insist God is real.


There is only no one /thing insisting God is real.

The illusion is real.

Nothing is real.


How many more times are you going to try and analyse what can only be a direct experience that no one is having?

You are like a worn out record, and so am I.

That's the nature of source energy ..it just wants /desires, to express itself when ever, how ever, and in whatever that energy appears to manifest itself as...there is no one to stop it, no one to start it, its free to dance like the trees in the wind, which ever which way the wind blows

This is known as observed...who or what is observing...I have no idea.

You have no idea??
Then you are merely speculating.
Speculate = form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

That is why you are beating around the bush without arriving at any conclusion that is supported by sound evidence.

Btw, I am not condemning the "experience" or the non-experienced-state of 'oneness' and 'non-duality'.

One of the significant positive of oneness is that of any team, when every team member are in oneness towards the team mission and goals.
When all the team members are in oneness of purpose, no one is experiencing it consciously but rather they act spontaneously.
The moment a team member is conscious of it or need to be in oneness, then that spontaneous 'oneness' is lost.
The 'experience' of that oneness is always on hindsight.
That is what I meant when a person have direct 'experience' of non-duality, i.e. it is a experience based on hindsight.

Another description of such an experience is 'the flow.'

In positive psychology, flow, also known colloquially as being in the zone, is the mental state of operation in which a person performing an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity. In essence, flow is characterized by complete absorption in what one does, and a resulting loss in one's sense of space and time.
-wiki

During meditation, one experience a sense of loss of self [only certain selves] but not the fundamental self when all the systems and sub-system of the person are in alignment as a team, that experience of oneness which is spontaneous "nothingness."
Obviously during that period of time there is no conscious experience, but one can speak of it from hindsight.
Such "experiences" arising from meditation are only to be considered as 'side effects' and never something to look forward to, else the whole purpose of meditation is lost.

The same altered states of consciousness [oneness, non-duality, etc.] in meditation or other spiritual practices can be induced by drugs, hallucinogen, electronically or they can arise from mental illness, brain damage [Jill Bolte], and many other reasons that cause certain connectivity in the brain that enable such experiences of non-duality and the likes.

How do you know and confirm that your experiences [hindsight] is not due to some some sort of misalignment [mental factors] in the brain?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:58 pm Illusions are, so how can they be impossible?

That which is known IS...but that which is KNOWN cannot know /be known ..for that would be twice knowing which is impossible.

Knowing IS, is possible. Therefore there is no such notion of impossible knowing.

Knowing is all knowing, there is nothing separate from this direct boundless knowing.

To deny that would require something outside of this direct knowing, which is impossible, so in knowing.. there is no such thing as impossible knowing.

Knowing is not known by a ''someone'', you are the knowing that cannot be known twice.

This is all God. God is not a ''some thing'' God is not and then some.. God is Everything and No thing in the same instant.

Incoherent babble!

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:38 am
You have no idea??
Then you are merely speculating.

Its all speculation you fool, including my story. All that is KNOWN is a story told by no one.

If you say you know..you don't.

Where does anyone get their knowledge from?

Do you know, and if you do where is the evidence?

Explain and perhaps show the evidence of the source of all KNOWLEDGE ?

I look forward to your reply.

This is going to be another very interesting story, I can't wait to see this one unfold.

.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:38 am
How do you know and confirm that your experiences [hindsight] is not due to some some sort of misalignment [mental factors] in the brain?

What the heck are you talking about now. What the heck has this got to do with a brain.

I have no idea what is a brain, I have never seen my brain in my entire life?

Do you honestly believe that is where you exist?

.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:30 pm

But there is another definition of death which is the ending of consciousness and in that sense I definitely do die
So I can be dead in one state and not dead in another but for me the ending of consciousness is effectively death

You have never known death, because there is no you to die.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:30 pmo me it is a transition from existence to non existence and I have no reason to fear it as the fear is very irrational

False emotion appearing real FEAR

There is no such thing as non-existence.

.

DAM '' This is known as observed...who or what is observing...I have no idea.''

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:38 am You have no idea??
Then you are merely speculating.
Speculate = form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

That is why you are beating around the bush without arriving at any conclusion that is supported by sound evidence.

Anything known is due to there being a conscious witness present. To witness is to know.

That you are witnessing these words on a computer screen is proof that there is a conscious witness present that KNOWS these words.

As the words are known as witnessed. Consciousness the witness is not known.

Do you understand?

Where is the evidence for consciousness?

That's what I was referring to ..what about you, what evidence are you referring to?

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