Philosophy Now Forum

Read of the following recently and I think there is a critical point to note and discuss.

Were the American cyclists killed in Tajikistan naive for traveling there?
On July 29, five terrorists in Tajikistan rammed a car into a group of seven Western cyclists, then set upon them with knives. Four of the cyclists were killed: two from the United States, one from Switzerland and one from the Netherlands.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... 92f27da1c0

Why I think the bikers were naive is based on what they wrote, i.e. Jay Austin [with Lauren Geoghegan] wrote in his blog;

You read the papers and you’re led to believe that the world is a big, scary place," Austin wrote. “People, the narrative goes, are not to be trusted. People are bad. People are evil."

“I don’t buy it," he continued. "Evil is a make-believe concept we’ve invented to deal with the complexities of fellow humans holding values and beliefs and perspectives different than our own... By and large, humans are kind. Self-interested sometimes, myopic sometimes, but kind. Generous and wonderful and kind.”

http://archive.is/7zSzM

I do not think the bikers went on the journey to prove the above points but they should have been wary if they were travelling to places like those where the majority are Muslims because the ideology of Islam is inherently evil.
Note the following;

Two days later, the Islamic State released a video showing five men it identified as the attackers, sitting before the ISIS flag. They face the camera and make a vow: to kill “disbelievers.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/07/worl ... ttack.html

The ethos and commands for believers to kill 'disbelievers' merely because they do not accept Allah of the Quran and his messenger - Muhammad, is stated in the Quran [core of the ideology of Islam].

We should not blame Muslims [human beings] primarily but we must make it a point to understand Islam the ideology in a major part is inherently evil, thus avoiding being naive like the bikers above.

Views?

I think they got very unlucky. Apparently it's a beautiful place for cyclists.

The murders may have had political motives. Americans are hated all over the Middle East except for Israel. American bombers destroyed more lives, homes, livestock, culture and super- and infrastructure there than any other foreign war machinery in recent times. Of course Americans are going to be killed. It's like the kamikaze attacks on the two towers of the World Trade Centre, reversed.

Grow up. If you kill others, expect to be killed for it. You or your kind.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am We should not blame Muslims [human beings] primarily but we must make it a point to understand Islam the ideology in a major part is inherently evil, thus avoiding being naive like the bikers above.

Views?

By the same token, we should not blame Americans, human beings, but we must make it a point to understand that American foreign politics in a major part is inherently evil. Don't live in the Middle East if yo don't want to be bombed by the American Air Force. Dangerous!!

-1- wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:51 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am We should not blame Muslims [human beings] primarily but we must make it a point to understand Islam the ideology in a major part is inherently evil, thus avoiding being naive like the bikers above.

Views?

By the same token, we should not blame Americans, human beings, but we must make it a point to understand that American foreign politics in a major part is inherently evil. Don't live in the Middle East if yo don't want to be bombed by the American Air Force. Dangerous!!

How many Americans voice opposition to their military? How many criticise it? None? There you go then. All yanks are complicit.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:25 pm

-1- wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:51 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am We should not blame Muslims [human beings] primarily but we must make it a point to understand Islam the ideology in a major part is inherently evil, thus avoiding being naive like the bikers above.

Views?

By the same token, we should not blame Americans, human beings, but we must make it a point to understand that American foreign politics in a major part is inherently evil. Don't live in the Middle East if yo don't want to be bombed by the American Air Force. Dangerous!!

How many Americans voice opposition to their military? How many criticise it? None? There you go then. All yanks are complicit.

Complicit means being involved in a wrong or illegal activity which clearly doesn't apply here so you're wrong. And how do you know that some Americans aren't opposed?

PhilX

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am Views?

Well, really, this post is yet another rebuke to your view that the human race is getting better and better, morally speaking. If I were feeling cynical, I would be inclined to point out that the oh-so-he polyanish words of the American biker are really words that might well have been said by you, judging by your earlier posts. Like him, you suppose that we can count on the burgeoning goodness of the human race...that evil is diminishing, and good is progressively on the increase.

His trust in the inherent goodness of human beings is exactly what put him in harm's way. It also killed his girlfriend. And that's my worry about yours, too. If human beings are getting better -- chattel slavery and genocide being but two cases of evil now, in your view, supposedly disappearing from the human landscape -- and if that view turns out to be naive, then we open ourselves and vulnerable others to worse atrocities yet to come. That being so, there's no particular virtue in insisting on moral optimism. Instead, it's a vice, because it exposes the naive to the predations of the unscrupulous, the opportunistic and the evil.

Now, it's all too easy to offer the shallow answer to this incident: that would be to say, "Well, people are good, but Islam is bad." While it's entirely obvious that Islam is an immoral, ignorant and brutally homicidal creed, we have to ask ourselves this deeper question: from where did this deep evil in Islam come? Unless I miss my guess, you're going to have to say, "Human beings invented Islam." But if you say that, then those humans are themselves the authors and producers of the evil. It could come from nowhere else. Where then is your moral optimism about human nature?

So ask yourself: if human beings are so "good," how is it that evil has even come to exist at all?

Now, there's a good question for you.

-1- wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:46 am The murders may have had political motives. Americans are hated all over the Middle East except for Israel. American bombers destroyed more lives, homes, livestock, culture and super- and infrastructure there than any other foreign war machinery in recent times. Of course Americans are going to be killed. It's like the kamikaze attacks on the two towers of the World Trade Centre, reversed.

Grow up. If you kill others, expect to be killed for it. You or your kind.

For those who are diverting the issue to 'Americans' note there were 7 cyclists of different nationalities.

Read again,

On July 29, five terrorists in Tajikistan rammed a car into a group of seven Western cyclists, then set upon them with knives. Four of the cyclists were killed: two from the United States, one from Switzerland and one from the Netherlands.

The other 3 are of different Nationalities.

What is critical is the group was attacked because they were 'deemed' to be disbelievers and Allah in the Quran exhorts Muslims [to do their divine duty] to kill disbelievers.

Note this from the Islamists who are inspired by their holy texts and God;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... ns-8533563

Reasons Why ISIS Hate You;

1. Because you are disbelievers
"We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers;
you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices."

It reads:
2. "What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred,
this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

"The fact is,
even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to HATE you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."

READ THE LAST PARAGRAPH ... that is very critical.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:57 am I think they got very unlucky. Apparently it's a beautiful place for cyclists.

They should not ignored those kind of odds based on facts, i.e. where there are Muslims there is a high chance of being killed for being a disbeliever, and more so where the place is that remote.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:05 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:57 am I think they got very unlucky. Apparently it's a beautiful place for cyclists.

They should not ignored those kind of odds based on facts, i.e. where there are Muslims there is a high chance of being killed for being a disbeliever, and more so where the place is that remote.

Where do you get your figures from? I'm not sure what your point is anyway. When you consider what Americans have done to muslim countries then I would say that muslims have been the picture of tolerance towards them. If you go 'biking' in someone else's country then I suppose you take your chances on whatever happens there.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:36 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am Views?

Well, really, this post is yet another rebuke to your view that the human race is getting better and better, morally speaking. If I were feeling cynical, I would be inclined to point out that the oh-so-he polyanish words of the American biker are really words that might well have been said by you, judging by your earlier posts. Like him, you suppose that we can count on the burgeoning goodness of the human race...that evil is diminishing, and good is progressively on the increase.

It is a wrong comparison.

I stated, DNA wise ALL humans has the potential for evil acts and appx. 20% [conservatively] are born with an active tendency for evil.

I also stated DNA wise, ALL humans has the potential for 'good.' While most humans are good in various degrees and forms, humanity does not have the active potential to prevent and suppress the evil potential of those 'SOME' evil prone humans YET.

I have shown there is a very slowly increasing trend of good prevailing over evil from since humans emerged to thousands of years ago to the present.

Evils acts like the OP happened because humanity has not yet suppressed the inherent evil potential within all humans.

His trust in the inherent goodness of human beings is exactly what put him in harm's way. It also killed his girlfriend. And that's my worry about yours, too. If human beings are getting better -- chattel slavery and genocide being but two cases of evil now, in your view, supposedly disappearing from the human landscape -- and if that view turns out to be naive, then we open ourselves and vulnerable others to worse atrocities yet to come. That being so, there's no particular virtue in insisting on moral optimism. Instead, it's a vice, because it exposes the naive to the predations of the unscrupulous, the opportunistic and the evil.

I am not insisting all the evil acts you mentioned above will not happened.
My point is to show there is a trend of moral progress, and humanity must understand its mechanics and expedite the processes so that the potential to evils acts can be inhibited and suppressed [not eliminated for good].

Now, it's all too easy to offer the shallow answer to this incident: that would be to say, "Well, people are good, but Islam is bad." While it's entirely obvious that Islam is an immoral, ignorant and brutally homicidal creed, we have to ask ourselves this deeper question: from where did this deep evil in Islam come? Unless I miss my guess, you're going to have to say, "Human beings invented Islam." But if you say that, then those humans are themselves the authors and producers of the evil. It could come from nowhere else. Where then is your moral optimism about human nature?

So ask yourself: if human beings are so "good," how is it that evil has even come to exist at all?

Now, there's a good question for you.

As I had stated, all humans has the potential to commit evil acts and that potential is embedded in the DNA and the potential established in a neural system that is embedded deep in the 'basement' of the brain.
Since the potential for evil is so complex within the DNA and deep in the brain, it is not practical to tweak the DNA and deep neural connections because disturbing these fundamental neural connections can lead to terrible side effects.

An analogy;
The potential for evil is like the terrible potential of the Yangtze River or other such rivers systems that wreck terrible seasonal catastrophe and havoc down river. Since we cannot get rid of the whole river, we can build inhibitors [dams] to modulate the forces of the river to prevent terrible catastrophe.

The potential to commit evil acts is driven by the DNA and deep neural networks and the only practical ways at present is to cultivate inhibitors to modulate and prevent the evil acts from being committed by evil prone people.

Note this inhibition and modulation of impulses is being carry out successfully with minor forces via Impulse Control Strategies.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/self-control
This is a lead to the inhibition of more intense impulses that compel SOME humans to commit terrible evil acts. There are already some successes [albeit slow] so it is possible for the masses when we have developed the competence to influence the masses to modulate their inborn evil tendencies.

Since the cultivation of inhibitors to modulate evils acts is a very slow process at present [which must be expedited - my long term project], what we need to focus at present is to get rid of the root causes that trigger SOME evil prone to commit evil acts [my short term project].
One of the very evident critical root cause that trigger evil prone believers to commit evil acts on non-believers is the evil laden ideology of Islam, re OP.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:23 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:05 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:57 am I think they got very unlucky. Apparently it's a beautiful place for cyclists.

They should not ignored those kind of odds based on facts, i.e. where there are Muslims there is a high chance of being killed for being a disbeliever, and more so where the place is that remote.

Where do you get your figures from? I'm not sure what your point is anyway. When you consider what Americans have done to muslim countries then I would say that muslims have been the picture of tolerance towards them. If you go 'biking' in someone else's country then I suppose you take your chances on whatever happens there.

I don't have exact figures but the very likely odds I stated is based of facts;

1. If you have read the news, you should have noted Muslims [a critical some] have been killing non-Muslims primarily because they are disbelievers, other reasons are secondary.
[read what I posted above]

• "We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers;

and worst;

• 2. "What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred,
  this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.
  
  "The fact is,
  even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to HATE you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."

This last point is supported by the ethos and verses from the Quran.
Therefore Allan in the Quran commands Muslims to "deal" with non-Muslims.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:01 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:23 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:05 am They should not ignored those kind of odds based on facts, i.e. where there are Muslims there is a high chance of being killed for being a disbeliever, and more so where the place is that remote.

Where do you get your figures from? I'm not sure what your point is anyway. When you consider what Americans have done to muslim countries then I would say that muslims have been the picture of tolerance towards them. If you go 'biking' in someone else's country then I suppose you take your chances on whatever happens there.

I don't have exact figures but the very likely odds I stated is based of facts;

1. If you have read the news, you should have noted Muslims [a critical some] have been killing non-Muslims primarily because they are disbelievers, other reasons are secondary.
[read what I posted above]

• "We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers;

and worst;

• 2. "What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred,
  this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.
  
  "The fact is,
  even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to HATE you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."

This last point is supported by the ethos and verses from the Quran.
Therefore Allan in the Quran commands Muslims to "deal" with non-Muslims.

Good.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:36 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am Views?

Well, really, this post is yet another rebuke to your view that the human race is getting better and better, morally speaking.

The post was nothing of the kind unless once's standards of evidence only extend to that which supports preconceived views.

Humans in history were far more violent and unreasonable than today. Immensely so, during various times, not least during the incredibly carnage - a huge number of murders, tortures, rapes and enslavement - committed by Christians during the Crusades, which were reportedly revenge for Islamists doing to same thing to Christians.

Somehow society has managed to civilise and gentrify despite the influence of the two great Abrahamic "religions of love", and that is testimony to the tremendous innate goodness within people, despite many obvious and well-publicised flaws.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:36 pm Now, it's all too easy to offer the shallow answer to this incident: that would be to say, "Well, people are good, but Islam is bad." While it's entirely obvious that Islam is an immoral, ignorant and brutally homicidal creed, we have to ask ourselves this deeper question: from where did this deep evil in Islam come? Unless I miss my guess, you're going to have to say, "Human beings invented Islam." But if you say that, then those humans are themselves the authors and producers of the evil. It could come from nowhere else. Where then is your moral optimism about human nature?

I always thought it was a weird phrasing of words to say someone 'invented' a religion. Depending on what definition you use, there needs to be a conscious intention for something to be 'invented,' and older religions often fall into this weird place when we consider that. Scientology, as an example was very obviously invented as a means to control people, so you could say there was a conscious effort to create something evil, there. However, when we get to the Judaeo-christian faiths, its exact history is a lot murkier. There's a reason why historians are typically specific enough to use the word 'founded' rather than 'invented,' as someone would with a contemporary religion.

Anyway, the point I'm getting to, is a sort of differentiation between human 'evil' and 'stupidity.' Scientology was obviously invented with a malicious intent, so you could definitely impute that onto our 'moral nature.' However, when it comes to Islam, someone could probably make a good case that Muhammad genuinely believe he was god's chosen one. I mean, I'm not totally sure because to be honest, I'm not that well informed on the founding of islam, particularly. I'm only saying it may not have been created out of pure hatred within the essence of human nature - rather of pure stupidity. Now this doesn't shift the blame to something else, because obviously humans are still to blame. But they're to blame in a different way, one that doesn't necessarily have to compromise your faith in their moral nature, specifically. The end result may have been the production of something evil, but that wasn't the intention. I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but I just thought it was an interesting point.