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Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:33 pm
by Philosophy Explorer
My answer is yes. When you multiply 0 by infinity, the answer is indeterminate. This means the answer may be 0 or 1 or 2 or infinity. You would need further information to specify the answer.
Since 0 is nothing, under ordinary circumstances, you would expect 0 as an answer. But with infinity, all bets are off. Do you find this acceptable?
PhilX
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:56 pm
by Skip
In real life, all numbers are nothing. They are merely concepts with no physical existence.
58x23 is exactly the same amount of substance as 0x0 - which, of course, none.
In mathematics, however, 0 is
not nothing.
It is a vitally important number, without which arithmetic would be restricted to calculating the price of potatoes.
Besides designating spaces unoccupied by other numbers, 0 also indicates decimal multiples and divisions; orders of magnitude and minitude.
And, of course, infinity is not a number with which one can perform mathematical operations.
Even though infinity is not a number, it is possible for one infinite set to contain more things than another infinite set. Mathematicians divide infinite sets into two categories, countable and uncountable sets. In a countably infinite set you can 'number' the things you are counting.
mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.large.numbers.html
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:29 pm
by Eodnhoj7
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 2:33 pm
My answer is yes. When you multiply 0 by infinity, the answer is indeterminate. This means the answer may be 0 or 1 or 2 or infinity. You would need further information to specify the answer.
Since 0 is nothing, under ordinary circumstances, you would expect 0 as an answer. But with infinity, all bets are off. Do you find this acceptable?
Yes.
PhilX
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:45 pm
by Averroes
From my understanding the answer is no.
Since you (or someone else) are required to do the multiplication, there is not nothing to begin with but there is already something, namely you yourself or whoever is doing the multiplication!
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:50 pm
by A_Seagull
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 2:33 pm
My answer is yes. When you multiply 0 by infinity, the answer is indeterminate. This means the answer may be 0 or 1 or 2 or infinity. You would need further information to specify the answer.
Since 0 is nothing, under ordinary circumstances, you would expect 0 as an answer. But with infinity, all bets are off. Do you find this acceptable?
PhilX
Infinity is not a number.
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:20 pm
by Philosophy Explorer
A_Seagull wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 9:50 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 2:33 pm
My answer is yes. When you multiply 0 by infinity, the answer is indeterminate. This means the answer may be 0 or 1 or 2 or infinity. You would need further information to specify the answer.
Since 0 is nothing, under ordinary circumstances, you would expect 0 as an answer. But with infinity, all bets are off. Do you find this acceptable?
PhilX
Infinity is not a number.
So what? In the expression 2A e.g., A is not a number, but it's often used in algebra.
PhilX
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:25 pm
by Skip
No matter how you manipulate an equation with nothing as a multiplier, it's
still never turns into something.
In the expression 2A e.g., A is not a number, but it's often used in algebra.
Not unless it represents numbers.
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:33 pm
by Philosophy Explorer
Skip wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 11:25 pm
No matter how you manipulate an equation with nothing as a multiplier, it's
still never turns into something.
In the expression 2A e.g., A is not a number, but it's often used in algebra.
Not unless it represents numbers.
That's the idea Skip, that A is used to represent a number or a few numbers.
As far as equations with 0 multipliers, multiplication by infinity DOES change it into something as it operates by different rules and is taught that way in math (calculus e.g.) You should check Wiki on this.
PhilX
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:51 pm
by Eodnhoj7
A_Seagull wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 9:50 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 2:33 pm
My answer is yes. When you multiply 0 by infinity, the answer is indeterminate. This means the answer may be 0 or 1 or 2 or infinity. You would need further information to specify the answer.
Since 0 is nothing, under ordinary circumstances, you would expect 0 as an answer. But with infinity, all bets are off. Do you find this acceptable?
PhilX
Infinity is not a number.
It is one series from which all numbers extend through 1 itself. No number, with the exception of 0 as "nothing" which can only be observed relative to 1, can exist without being composed of 1 itself.
While there may be multiple infinities this multiplicity is fundamentally rooted in 1 as a unit.
More research needs to be done with "1" and "infinity" because under certain circumstances I believe they are inseperable since "1" always must exist through itself as itself maintained through all further number as merely an extension of it.
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:14 am
by Skip
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 11:33 pm
[In the expression 2A e.g., .... that A is used to represent a number or a few numbers.
Not a few numbers. One specified unknown, whatever its actual quantity happens to be. That quantity can be different each time the equation is used, but it must remain constant through the solving of the equation each time.
As far as equations with 0 multipliers,
Pay attention! I didn't say 0; i said
nothing. I've already pointed out that zero isn't nothing. It changes the value of another number in any operation where it is not the first digit and it doesn't affect the result of an operation where it appears as a single digit. In all other instances - such as where 0 is the second, third, fourth or whatever digit in a larger number, it acts as a 10x whichever place it follows, and affects the result accordingly.
multiplication by infinity DOES change it into something as it operates by different rules and is taught that way in math (calculus e.g.) You should check Wiki on this.
But this is not true of nothing; it is only true of the number 0.
It still only becomes a mathematical concept, exactly like all other numbers, rather than an actual thing.
The transparent trickery of pretending that 0 and nothing are interchangeable simple doesn't work.
If I could shed the zero on my age, I'd be just finishing Grade 1 - and I would already know that zero is not nothing.
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:48 am
by Philosophy Explorer
Skip wrote: ↑Wed May 30, 2018 12:14 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 11:33 pm
[In the expression 2A e.g., .... that A is used to represent a number or a few numbers.
Not a few numbers. One specified unknown, whatever its actual quantity happens to be. That quantity can be different each time the equation is used, but it must remain constant through the solving of the equation each time.
As far as equations with 0 multipliers,
Pay attention! I didn't say 0; i said
nothing. I've already pointed out that zero isn't nothing. It changes the value of another number in any operation where it is not the first digit and it doesn't affect the result of an operation where it appears as a single digit. In all other instances - such as where 0 is the second, third, fourth or whatever digit in a larger number, it acts as a 10x whichever place it follows, and affects the result accordingly.
multiplication by infinity DOES change it into something as it operates by different rules and is taught that way in math (calculus e.g.) You should check Wiki on this.
But this is not true of nothing; it is only true of the number 0.
It still only becomes a mathematical concept, exactly like all other numbers, rather than an actual thing.
The transparent trickery of pretending that 0 and nothing are interchangeable simple doesn't work.
If I could shed the zero on my age, I'd be just finishing Grade 1 - and I would already know that zero is not nothing.
If you want to adopt that POV about the difference between 0 and nothing, that's fine with me Skip and we're agreed about what happens when multiplying 0 by infinity (as taught in math texts, even if infinity is understood as a set of numbers). The texts teach that the result from multiplication is indeterminate so multiplication does make sense between a number and a set of numbers.
PhilX
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:59 am
by Philosophy Explorer
Since 0 isn't nothing, then what is it in relationship to nothing?
PhilX
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:07 am
by Skip
It's a number. Just as 1 and 5 are numbers. None of them exist in the world: they are all symbols that represent quantities.
Zero can represent nothing in specified situations, or the absence of a particular thing, or the absence of all things, or an order of magnitude, or a person of little social significance, or a circle, or part of a postal code or ISBN number, or a place in a progression, or a value in some system.
In relation to nothing, it is the numeric symbol designated to represent null or a blank in calculations.
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:15 am
by Eodnhoj7
Skip wrote: ↑Wed May 30, 2018 3:07 am
It's a number. Just as 1 and 5 are numbers. None of them exist in the world: they are all symbols that represent quantities.
Zero can represent nothing in specified situations, or the absence of a particular thing, or the absence of all things, or an order of magnitude, or a person of little social significance, or a circle, or part of a postal code or ISBN number, or a place in a progression, or a value in some system.
In relation to nothing, it is the numeric symbol designated to represent null or a blank in calculations.
0 would be an observation of relation then considering it either observes absences or nothingness (which can only be observe through somethingness)?
Re: Can you get something out of nothing?
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:39 am
by Skip
Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 12:15 am
0 would be an observation of relation then considering it either observes absences or nothingness (which can only be observe through somethingness)?
It's not an observation; it's a representation. A symbol that can be made to stand for nothing in a particular relationship of things (
not for the concept of nothingness) or for the absence of a specified something, or as a modifier of other numbers. It cannot be observed, because it has no independent existence. No number, no letter, no icon, no symbol has any observable reality: they are all ciphers that may represent real things, or quantities of real things, or relationships between concepts (unreal things).
PhilX