Philosophy Now Forum

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After realizing that the conversation between me and Dubious was getting way off topic of the thread in the Lounge section (here - viewtopic.php?f=20&t=24151#p359197), I took the liberty of continuing it in this new thread in the General section.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 3:44 am ...what do you personally have to offer in its stead that would cause an increase in the conscience of humanity?

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:29 pm The question for me is simultaneously unproblematic and difficult making it more complex than if it simply defaulted to either. There can be many causes, intense trauma being the universal one either personally experienced or felt empathically.

Yes, there can be many causes, but my interest is geared toward those that are preemptive in nature and not some “after-the-fact” response to some intense trauma or empathetic experience.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:29 pm For one, I don’t believe a higher consciousness is required to cause an increase in conscience. The consciousness we collectively possess should be easily sufficient to experience the retributions of negative feedback; it only needs to be activated more and its contents better examined.

But that’s the point of my initial question to you, Dubious.

What methods can we employ that can preemptively aid in the facilitation of your suggestion of how “...it...” (conscience) “...only needs to be activated more...”?

In lieu of people having to spend time on the International Space Station, or to drop acid...

...my own (perhaps ineffectual) approach to the problem is the introduction of cosmic ideas and visualizations that are meant to give humans a visceral sensation of what a “moon’s-eye” view of the earth would be like...

...all in the hope of triggering the sorts of spiritual epiphanies that are often experienced by the astronauts when viewing our planet (in its full 3-D glory) from a higher perspective.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:29 pm For me, conscience possesses structure and not a tepid one in being so congruent with consciousness, in effect, becoming an object within it. There is no soft spot in the psyche feeling the pain of getting beaten up by events. It is by means of consciousness and conscience that we as creatures of nature separate ourselves from it, nature itself having caused it.

It’s precisely this structure which extreme politics or the military seek to dismantle...

But don’t you see, that if conscience can be crushed and reduced through political and (especially) military indoctrination,...

(i.e., through words and ideas that are intended to lower one’s consciousness of the oneness and sameness of our being)

...then through words and ideas, the opposite can also be achieved.

Now I am not so lost in some delusion of self-importance that I don’t realize that little old me trying to raise the general level of human consciousness on earth is pretty much the equivalent of trying to raise the Titanic with a fishing pole.

However, don’t you think it is a worthwhile endeavor to at least give it “the old college try” in any way we can, even if it seems to be an insurmountable situation?

So, again, if you don’t see much merit in my particular method, then what substantive and useful (preemptive) approach do you recommend for “activating” a higher degree of conscience in humanity?
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rewire or recreate the individual's human brain (that's about 7.6 billion times initially, give or take births and deaths)

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 11:58 pm rewire or recreate the individual's human brain (that's about 7.6 billion times initially, give or take births and deaths)

“Rewiring” is kind of what I am suggesting, Imp, except through non-invasive means.
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seeds wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 11:40 pmYes, there can be many causes, but my interest is geared toward those that are preemptive in nature and not some “after-the-fact” response to some intense trauma or empathetic experience.

Consider how conscience developed in its journey through history. How did it manifest itself from 3000 years ago until now...and is it still happening? What was once mostly tribal has transfigured itself into becoming more ecumenical.

A major revelation too is when not too long ago, conscience considerations applicable only to humans are now forwarded to other citizens of the planet, at least in the West. The East is still a cesspool.

Conscience has two sides to it, awake or dormant. To be “preemptive” it must be alive and kicking for it to prevent, or provoked to defend, depending on the situation.

In effect, it’s not just a matter of preemption but of learning through experience, pain and regret what, in a long inventory, invokes one’s judgement to preempt. In short, that object in the brain called conscience must be put to the rack to both awaken and expand itself. One can’t preempt without a conscience which must be educated into being one…a long historical process as mentioned

seeds wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 11:40 pmWhat methods can we employ that can preemptively aid in the facilitation of your suggestion of how “...it...” (conscience) “...only needs to be activated more...”?

...all the processes, internal and external, which in all ages have activated it already as per above.

seeds wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 11:40 pmBut don’t you see, that if conscience can be crushed and reduced through political and (especially) military indoctrination,...

(i.e., through words and ideas that are intended to lower one’s consciousness of the oneness and sameness of our being)

...then through words and ideas, the opposite can also be achieved.

Philosophy has certainly made contributions in the past. Conscience can be made vulnerable to words and propaganda; those most amenable are the young where distinctions haven’t yet completely formed. They are more convinced of the rightness of an action by consensus rather than filtered by judgement.

What I was referring to were not words and ideas specifically, but indoctrination by forcing deeds of cruelty meant to anesthetize the conscience into not reacting, instead, accepting by fiat, orders and doctrines not in its nature...quite different from trying to convince simply through words and ideas.

seeds wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 11:40 pmSo, again, if you don’t see much merit in my particular method, then what substantive and useful (preemptive) approach do you recommend for “activating” a higher degree of conscience in humanity?

...the concrete visualization and ultimate metaphor of wholeness in seeing the world from a vast distance (you know the kind) combining our diverse perspectives into this one tiny dot where each animate creature communes with everything else for it is here that solitude should create solidarity with all creation. If there’s no communion with foreigners on other planets, we arrive at being the virtual nucleus of the universe. Conscience should preempt us from splitting the atom.

There’s also the old adage “do no evil” but that depends on how evil is defined, by whom, in what age and for what purpose.

Conscience can also have virulent side-effects if taken too far becoming harmful to oneself or an entire nation. There are signs of that already!

Have to stop myself now. This post is already too long!

seeds wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 11:40 pm Yes, there can be many causes, but my interest is geared toward those that are preemptive in nature and not some “after-the-fact” response to some intense trauma or empathetic experience.

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon May 28, 2018 12:29 am Consider how conscience developed in its journey through history. How did it manifest itself from 3000 years ago until now...and is it still happening? What was once mostly tribal has transfigured itself into becoming more ecumenical.

A major revelation too is when not too long ago, conscience considerations applicable only to humans are now forwarded to other citizens of the planet, at least in the West. The East is still a cesspool.

I’m not so sure about that, Dubious.

Compared to the horrors that the West bestows upon other citizens of the planet in the form of industrial farming of animals, I can’t imagine the East being much worse, at least not in that regard.

In other words, ask a factory-farmed chicken or pig, for example, how they feel about the West’s empathy and conscience.

In your eloquent reply, you offered an excellent perspective on the issue, however, you still have not provided any preemptive solutions (perhaps “proactive” solutions might be a better word) to your own suggestion that conscience...

“...only needs to be activated more....”

(Continued in next post)
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(Continued from prior post)

As a follow-up to my earlier statement...

seeds wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 11:40 pm ...my own (perhaps ineffectual) approach to the problem is the introduction of cosmic ideas and visualizations that are meant to give humans a visceral sensation of what a “moon’s-eye” view of the earth would be like...

...all in the hope of triggering the sorts of spiritual epiphanies that are often experienced by the astronauts when viewing our planet (in its full 3-D glory) from a higher perspective.

...I have often wished that NASA would create a project whose sole purpose was to travel out into space just far enough in order to capture a collection of hi-definition, three-dimensional images of the earth.

I’m talking about 3-D (moving and static) shots of the planet...

(similar to that iconic 2-D one taken in 1972 showing the African continent which, according to Wiki, is one of the most reproduced images in human history, here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_ ... llo_17.jpg)

...taken from every possible angle and perspective.

They could then be viewed, not only on the new stereoscopic processors of our modern phones, but also on those inexpensive 3-D viewers (View-Masters) we played with as kids.

NASA could even announce to the world the precise times when the photos and videos will be taken so that we can all stand outside and smile and wave to the cameras in a symbolic gesture of our human unity on this spherical jewel we are standing on.

And when we finally view the images, we can picture exactly where we were and what we were doing at the moment they were taken, in kind of a worldwide “out-of-body” glimpse of ourselves from outer space.

Now that may sound silly, but I honestly believe that such higher visualizations of our shared situation on this tiny orb...

(again, similar to how the astronauts have seen us from the windows of their space vehicles)

...might aid in the raising of humanity’s overall awareness of the utter insanity of the artificial and imaginary walls that divide us based on religious and political ideologies.

Now there's no denying the fact that sending a human to Mars, for example, would be interesting for science, however, I can’t imagine a more useful application of the space program (to all of humanity in general) than the one suggested above.

Needless to say, I could be woefully deluded by wishful thinking; however, those are the kinds of “proactive” measures we could take that might speed up the process of increasing humanity’s conscience.

Can you think of any others?

(Continued in next post)
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(Continued from prior post)

Now of course I am just speaking metaphorically here, but think of the measures mentioned in the prior post as having something in common with the monolith in the movie “2001: A Space Odyssey” that helped the apes (our ancestors) to awaken into a higher level of consciousness, with the ultimate point being that we may be on the cusp of another transformative awakening...

...hence my constant squawking about the need for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the old one, which clearly is no longer viable.

(Now I realize, Dubious, that you are strongly opposed to any form of metaphysical conjecture, so just take all of the above as being the wild speculative blatherings (hopefully interesting blatherings) of a crazy old hippie. )
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I think that people keep chipping away at promoting that which they see as important, or at least the latest shiny idea that that takes their fancy. In the end, the sum of each person's wants and needs is made clear.

Greta wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 4:06 am I think that people keep chipping away at promoting that which they see as important, or at least the latest shiny idea that that takes their fancy. In the end, the sum of each person's wants and needs is made clear.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, Greta.

Please clarify for me.
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seeds wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 4:22 am

Greta wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 4:06 am I think that people keep chipping away at promoting that which they see as important, or at least the latest shiny idea that that takes their fancy. In the end, the sum of each person's wants and needs is made clear.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, Greta.

Please clarify for me.

There are many millions of people pushing for this or that, plus many who support or disagree with those positions. Out of all this argy bargy will come a blend of all the ideas to some extent.

Dubious wrote:Consider how conscience developed in its journey through history. How did it manifest itself from 3000 years ago until now...and is it still happening? What was once mostly tribal has transfigured itself into becoming more ecumenical.

A major revelation too is when not too long ago, conscience considerations applicable only to humans are now forwarded to other citizens of the planet, at least in the West. The East is still a cesspool.

seeds wrote:I’m not so sure about that, Dubious.

Compared to the horrors that the West bestows upon other citizens of the planet in the form of industrial farming of animals, I can’t imagine the East being much worse, at least not in that regard.

In other words, ask a factory-farmed chicken or pig, for example, how they feel about the West’s empathy and conscience.

Of course there are still too many exception to the rule but when its reported people get really mad and ready to lynch the perpetrators. Companies too are very careful to protect their image when it comes to handling animals not only based on cruelty laws - which barely exist on the other side - but even more so on public image. In most of the East very little of this applies.

How do you think people in the West would react if anything like this happened here? The following is only a "mild" presentation of what goes on in countries like China who after 5000 years of civilization accomplished nothing except how to steal.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/ ... 659410.jpg

Gandhi correctly said The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

Based on this alone, you can judge for yourself just how little East & West have in common.

seeds wrote:you still have not provided any preemptive solutions (perhaps “proactive” solutions might be a better word) to your own suggestion that conscience...

“...only needs to be activated more....”

I admit the word “only” makes it sound a little too glib, too easy when there’s nothing easy about it. Only doesn’t really apply but the rest of it stands. Conscience gets activated incrementally by acknowledging what invoked it. Once administered, like a vaccine, it stands guard against it. Mere metaphysical revelations of good and evil, like placebos, are ineffective in establishing its presence.

seeds wrote:...I have often wished that NASA would create a project whose sole purpose was to travel out into space just far enough in order to capture a collection of hi-definition, three-dimensional images of the earth.

That would indeed be interesting to see; I have no doubt it won’t be long before it happens.

seeds wrote:Now that may sound silly, but I honestly believe that such higher visualizations of our shared situation on this tiny orb might aid in the raising of humanity’s overall awareness of the utter insanity of the artificial and imaginary walls that divide us based on religious and political ideologies.

One would hope that’s true but I doubt it. If, with all the pictures of the Milky Way galaxy, in which we barely exist as a speck, we still aren’t convinced how would a 3D representation of our minuscule outpost accomplish it...though as mentioned, it would be something to behold.

seeds wrote:Needless to say, I could be woefully deluded by wishful thinking; however, those are the kinds of “proactive” measures we could take that might speed up the process of increasing humanity’s conscience.

Can you think of any others?

Again, it’s rarely the grand metaphors which are the proactive agents but failures in the full realization of its consequences which whips the conscience into action.

seeds wrote:Now of course I am just speaking metaphorically here, but think of the measures mentioned in the prior post as having something in common with the monolith in the movie “2001: A Space Odyssey” that helped the apes (our ancestors) to awaken into a higher level of consciousness, with the ultimate point being that we may be on the cusp of another transformative awakening...

It was a great Si-fi story forcing one to speculate on possibilities...the music was also magnificent though for its very mysterious ending I would have chosen the coda of the first movement to Bruckner’s 9th symphony. For me if the cosmos could be rendered in sound, that’s what it would sound like.

Recall the monolith in the story was an object planted by some mysterious alien intelligence. We don’t have any such guidance to affect us or move us forward. We can only imagine such an ideal event with virtually zero probability of it happening. We’re on our own with very little in our philosophy to help us out. I don’t believe its wise to expect some kind of transformative metanoia surging across the globe. We’re in a process of transformation anyways whether we feel it or not; the only thing we can do is see where it leads...win or fail!

seeds wrote:(Now I realize, Dubious, that you are strongly opposed to any form of metaphysical conjecture, so just take all of the above as being the wild speculative blatherings (hopefully interesting blatherings) of a crazy old hippie. )

...not as true as you imagine. I just don’t see the advantage in making too many leaps beyond our current reality with all of its limitations and insidious tendencies. The present in any instance is contained in the future not in imagining some cosmic presence simply because we can or wish to.

Having said that, there’s also nothing wrong in playing with the idea of some grand cosmic coda of human destiny. I know and feel the fascination of that more than you think I do. Nevertheless, we live in a world of reality however it presents itself whose horizons fall very far short of those conceptions. I prefer to acknowledge the present as a moving point going to who knows where...perhaps to its ultimate
D minor conclusion of an endless journey.

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed May 30, 2018 10:21 am

seeds wrote:Now that may sound silly, but I honestly believe that such higher visualizations of our shared situation on this tiny orb might aid in the raising of humanity’s overall awareness of the utter insanity of the artificial and imaginary walls that divide us based on religious and political ideologies.

One would hope that’s true but I doubt it. If, with all the pictures of the Milky Way galaxy, in which we barely exist as a speck, we still aren’t convinced how would a 3D representation of our minuscule outpost accomplish it...though as mentioned, it would be something to behold.

I think it's a good idea, Seeds... and I think anything that effectively unveils broader realities, can help expand awareness for those who look up from their smaller imaginings and creations -- and the more people who do that, the more broader realities are revealed to more people. Our individual transmissions into the COLLECTIVE of humankind could raise the consciousness level too. Like ants that explore ahead of the colony, and then come back to describe the larger world... and provide guidance for getting there.

I don't think, Dubious, that it has to be a linear or long process of building one brick atop another -- that just seems like the channel that many humans are tuned to in order to build and make sense of things in a certain methodical way. We are entertained by the stories of our methodical lives -- and we find/imagine meaning in that. However, from another perspective, humans also appear to be a vast network within themselves (as well as collectively) that can access all sorts of things when they simply allow new operating systems to be used/accessed.

Quick examples of not requiring long processes: (1) children or adults who have astounding abilities outside or beyond their personal experience, or (2) the way that psychedelics can instantly and permanently expand a person's understanding (which is why so many ancient traditions sacredly use it). If there were a major cosmic/extra-terrestrial event, it would most surely awaken a lot of people from whatever smaller focus they might be intoxicated with, instantly rewriting their whole belief system... and they would likely never be able to go back. If such things are possible, then there is no singular process or timing we are limited to or defined by.

My response to the question of this thread... on the individual level... is "to consciously model alternatives to the status quo". Through our words and actions, we can model alternative ways/options, and demonstrate their success -- in order to show that nothing has to be a certain way. People who aren't unconsciously intoxicated with a particular agenda or belief, will likely notice and say... "Hey, that makes sense" or "I want to check that out"... and then the awareness can ripple. The slower-evolvers will be moved along or eventually die-out due to inefficiency of the broader system.

Based on my own experiences, I know there can be sudden shifts... which may seem radical or other-worldly at first, but are actually very natural... as well as very PERFECT. And it's a matter of attunement rather than process. If a person who hasn't considered such an idea as that, can actually accept it as a reasonable truth/potential, imagine what that points to!

Pain....

Greta wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 4:37 am There are many millions of people pushing for this or that, plus many who support or disagree with those positions. Out of all this argy bargy will come a blend of all the ideas to some extent.

Greta, I’m not seeing anything in your comment that deals with the topic of the thread.

Do you have any personal ideas or suggestions of something that can be done to help raise humanity’s level of empathy for each other and all of life in general?
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Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed May 30, 2018 4:40 pmPain....

Care to elaborate?

And remember, we are looking for actionable “proactive” solutions, not “reactive” solutions.
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