Philosophy Now Forum

Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’s eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’s eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

Regards
DL

Oh, I don’t know, DL, that’s a tough one.

However, I think a more important question is why did the Japanese deity Izanagi have to use his younger sister Izanami to give birth to the islands of Japan?

According to Wiki in regards to Izanagi:

Wiki wrote: He with his spouse and younger sister Izanami gave birth to the many islands of Japan (kuniumi), and begat numerous deities of Shintoism (kamiumi). But she died after giving birth to the fire-god Kagu-tsuchi. Izanagi executed the fire god with the "ten-grasp sword" (Totsuka-no-tsurugi). Afterwards, he paid his wife a visit in Yomi-no-kuni (the Underworld) in the hopes of retrieving her. But she had partaken of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld, rendering her return impossible. Izanagi betrayed his promise not to look at her, and lit up a fire, only to behold her in her monstrous and hellish state. To avenge her shame, she dispatched the lightning god Yakusa no ikazuchi no kami (Raijin) and the horrible hag Yomotsu-shikome to chase after him. Izanagi escaped, but the goddess declared to kill a thousand of his people every day. Izanagi retorted that a thousand and five hundred will be born every day.

Why in the world did Izanami partake of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld? Didn’t she realize that it would render her return impossible?

I’m quite upset over this whole affair.
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 5:07 pm

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’s eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

Regards
DL

Oh, I don’t know, DL, that’s a tough one.

However, I think a more important question is why did the Japanese deity Izanagi have to use his younger sister Izanami to give birth to the islands of Japan?

According to Wiki in regards to Izanagi:

Wiki wrote: He with his spouse and younger sister Izanami gave birth to the many islands of Japan (kuniumi), and begat numerous deities of Shintoism (kamiumi). But she died after giving birth to the fire-god Kagu-tsuchi. Izanagi executed the fire god with the "ten-grasp sword" (Totsuka-no-tsurugi). Afterwards, he paid his wife a visit in Yomi-no-kuni (the Underworld) in the hopes of retrieving her. But she had partaken of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld, rendering her return impossible. Izanagi betrayed his promise not to look at her, and lit up a fire, only to behold her in her monstrous and hellish state. To avenge her shame, she dispatched the lightning god Yakusa no ikazuchi no kami (Raijin) and the horrible hag Yomotsu-shikome to chase after him. Izanagi escaped, but the goddess declared to kill a thousand of his people every day. Izanagi retorted that a thousand and five hundred will be born every day.

Why in the world did Izanami partake of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld? Didn’t she realize that it would render her return impossible?

I’m quite upset over this whole affair.
_______

IOW, God fell.

Thanks for your honesty.

Regards
DL

floating in the clouds.... whaa?

-Imp

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

you and i agree man rose.

as for "god" the one in genesis (and the rest of the Torah as well - "on other gods before me/i'm a jellous god"..............."he" is a small Summarian god.

as we both know the tales in the Torah predate modern Juadism and are polytheistc summarian.

so "god" in the Torah is a small one - petty and fearful of man's potential to "de-throne" him if given the chance.

and why you and i know is why he removed the other tree.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

do modern day Jews share our view of their Torah god?

I don't see that they do, but welcome your support that they do.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

agreed. and clear reading of genesis make it clear God (the one in the Torah) feared man would become his equal had he eaten of the second tree and so no longer die.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’s eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

yep.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue,

i don't know about this view from Jews - tell me more.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

Regards
DL

interested in your views though an atheist.

if willing.

peace.

I am not an atheist. I am a Gnostic Christian.

As to more on what the Jews thinking.

Non literalist for starters.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historica ... exodus.htm

As to Eden, Jews see original virtue as shown in this link.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

Jews are well ahead of Christianity in their thinking. They put morals ahead of their tribalism.

Regards
DL

I see a red thread through it all.

It starts with the tree of knowledge. It is forbidden. It caused condemnation. What does God not want us to know?

Then: Lucifer. The bearer of light. The symbol of enlightenment. The enemy of God. What is so bad about being enlightened?

And finally: Illuminati. The conspiracy theory we all heard of. Again knowledge is evil!

Could the ancients somehow have known, that knowledge eventually would become a threat to religion?

How?!

QuantumT wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:14 pm I see a red thread through it all.

It starts with the tree of knowledge. It is forbidden. It caused condemnation. What does God not want us to know?

Then: Lucifer. The bearer of light. The symbol of enlightenment. The enemy of God. What is so bad about being enlightened?

And finally: Illuminati. The conspiracy theory we all heard of. Again knowledge is evil!

Could the ancients somehow have known, that knowledge eventually would become a threat to religion?

How?!

Just good common sense ion thinking that religious lies would eventually be recognized for what they are. Religious lies.

This actually speaks to before Christianity became an idol worshiping religion. The first link speak of that good seeking after God while the second link shows the results.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

As a Gnostic Christian, I allow myself to hate such vile mainstream religions we presently suffer.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’s eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

Regards
DL

It does seem like the Judeo-Christian God is quite a nasty being. I think one of the most memorable movies for me is one I saw a few years back called: God on Trial. In the end God is found "guilty" of not being a good God by a group of Jews in a Nazi death camp during WW2. But even after the verdict is rendered, they all end up praying to God anyway as they are being round up for final execution, because (I guess) whether good or bad, we are all at the mercy of God regardless and praying to an evil God is maybe all we can do to attempt to spare ourselves from whatever torments we may face. It's a sobering thought to me.

Speaking for myself, I don't know what (if anything) awaits after wordly death. My best guess is that nothing awaits us after we die except absolute oblivion (non-being). I suspect this world is all we have and all we'll ever have and, eventually, even this world will come to a cosmological end.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:32 am

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 3:26 pm Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see it as where man was elevated.

I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adam and Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if God had not locked away the tree of life.

Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’s eyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense, tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for a murdering God.

Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or as Christians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth with Original Murder?

Regards
DL

It does seem like the Judeo-Christian God is quite a nasty being. I think one of the most memorable movies for me is one I saw a few years back called: God on Trial. In the end God is found "guilty" of not being a good God by a group of Jews in a Nazi death camp during WW2. But even after the verdict is rendered, they all end up praying to God anyway as they are being round up for final execution, because (I guess) whether good or bad, we are all at the mercy of God regardless and praying to an evil God is maybe all we can do to attempt to spare ourselves from whatever torments we may face. It's a sobering thought to me.

Speaking for myself, I don't know what (if anything) awaits after wordly death. My best guess is that nothing awaits us after we die except absolute oblivion (non-being). I suspect this world is all we have and all we'll ever have and, eventually, even this world will come to a cosmological end.

Nice to see that you have not let a belief system hinder your moral sense.

As a Gnostic Christian, I am as agnostic as you are, (if not an atheist), and we will not ague much.

It seems, we have the same ideal for our master controller/God, to me. I would not preach against you but would recommend that meditation might grow your present knowledge and wisdom.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our God "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that lazy Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural.

Regards
DL