Philosophy Now Forum

If you attempt to lie to yourself, you shouldn't succeed because you would know it's a lie.

However, if you have a split personality, then I can see where you can lie to yourself, where one of the personalities tells the other personalities a lie.

Do you agree?

PhilX

Well, there are all sorts of psychological defence mechanisms that shield people from unpalatable truths. More generally, people don't exactly like to themselves, but they accept premises of questionable soundness and develop a worldview based on that. Often they will support their beliefs with the flimsiest of evidence and invent stories for why much stronger contradictory evidence is invalid.

All humans can lie to themselves. It's a property of the multi-lobed brain to be able to sequester conflicting or contradictory knowledge in separate compartments. Thus, it is possible for a scientist to believe in the supernatural, for a Christian to enrich himself to the detriment of fellow parishioners, for a good citizen to cheat on his taxes, for a good husband to cheat on his wife, for an animal lover to eat lamb at Easter.
Some people are more adept at self-deception than others, and some periods of life are more susceptible to delusion.
It also gets easier with practice.

There is actually good evidence from neuroscience, and evolutionary biology, that we can and do lie to ourselves. The reason? It is easy to lie to another when one believes their own lie.

One sort of lie to oneself is rationalizing.

We could try it here to see if it always works.

"I love my wife but I buy physical love from other woman because ...

1. my wife is tired and prefers a good book
2. I get more satisfaction from variation (it can be observed among apes that polygamy is normal) and that way I am a better performing husband and my wife likes money
3. .... "

Does it sound convincing to anyone ?

duszek wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:30 am One sort of lie to oneself is rationalizing.

.....Does it sound convincing to anyone ?

Only to the one who is determined to convince himself.
And if you think that's self-deception, you should read some religious apologetics, or nationalist jingo.

Skip wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:06 pm

duszek wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:30 am One sort of lie to oneself is rationalizing.

.....Does it sound convincing to anyone ?

Only to the one who is determined to convince himself.
And if you think that's self-deception, you should read some religious apologetics, or nationalist jingo.

Yes, Skip.
But why is this person trying to convince himself of something at all ?
Why this effort of self-conviction ?

This question needs to be answered too, somehow at least.

I think that you can lie to yourself, in a way. If you can't rationalize why you are doing something, then that is a kind of lie to yourself.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:09 am If you attempt to lie to yourself, you shouldn't succeed because you would know it's a lie.

However, if you have a split personality, then I can see where you can lie to yourself, where one of the personalities tells the other personalities a lie.

Do you agree?

PhilX

But I don't think anyone could have a split personality because like what would it mean? If you take psychopaths for example, they know that they are evil relishing another's pain and giving people pain 'cause they find it enjoyable, and if you consider the case of Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and it's one person but depicting two personalities two characters, then it's not like something split, it's like liking mangoes but liking oranges too. Let's say there is something like a split personality, so then the person knows about his other personality so then there could be no lying to self even there. PhilX, I think what you really really want to find out is - can you make yourself believe that - you like that and not that, you are that and not that etc. I mean to say that we would all like to think good and high of ourselves, problem arises when we are not, and I think that what you want to know is if a person is not so high, good, nice, pretty and so on but would like to believe so, then do many or most people do that or not? It's not anything about split personalities. I don't think any such thing exists. Also, yes most people would like to think better of themselves than they are and they do, and that is not being split personality.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:09 am If you attempt to lie to yourself, you shouldn't succeed because you would know it's a lie.

However, if you have a split personality, then I can see where you can lie to yourself, where one of the personalities tells the other personalities a lie.

Do you agree?

PhilX

Yes, when there is a conflict between your belief and your interest/need.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:09 am If you attempt to lie to yourself, you shouldn't succeed because you would know it's a lie.

bullshit.

each and every one of us is 20 precent conscience mind, 80 percent subscience.

playing denial/ostrich is quite effective - sadly.

and all to common - not need for "Split personality" traits.

just the common "joe ave" human personality traits will do fine for viable denial to reality.


------------- the brave can and do confront their demons/subconscience (they are a minority of 20 percent or so) -----to whatever degree.............

and honest with themselves/know themselves well enough to not play the ostrich/head in sand game.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:09 am that leaves the easy way of the 80-percent - via classic denial and tranfurance (condeming others over your own sub-demons (playing bully)). which the majority play.

dissasotiative (sp) - dylexic - you can figure it out, dissorder is real ( a product of early sexual abuse) - but not relavent to the Ostich game - most "normal" folks play it all the time - with great effect.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:09 am However, if you have a split personality, then I can see where you can lie to yourself, where one of the personalities tells the other personalities a lie.

Do you agree?

PhilX

lying to oneself is a full time battle - even for the self actualized!!!!!!!!!!!!

a life long battle - even for the wisest of us.

for knowing yourself is a lifelong process.

--------------------------

do you not know this? you post suggests that you do not sadly ;-/.

uwot wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:16 am Well, there are all sorts of psychological defence mechanisms that shield people from unpalatable truths. More generally, people don't exactly like to themselves, but they accept premises of questionable soundness and develop a worldview based on that. Often they will support their beliefs with the flimsiest of evidence and invent stories for why much stronger contradictory evidence is invalid.

yep agree fully.

i'd call that lying to youself myself. but no matter - semantics.

Skip wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm All humans can lie to themselves. It's a property of the multi-lobed brain to be able to sequester conflicting or contradictory knowledge in separate compartments. Thus, it is possible for a scientist to believe in the supernatural, for a Christian to enrich himself to the detriment of fellow parishioners, for a good citizen to cheat on his taxes, for a good husband to cheat on his wife, for an animal lover to eat lamb at Easter.
Some people are more adept at self-deception than others, and some periods of life are more susceptible to delusion.

yep

Skip wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm It also gets easier with practice.

lol.................i suspect you are right, count me out on that practice though.

I mean i'm sure (i know) i do on minor matters - counter to my conscience wish. on "Big things" my waking will is able to defeat my subscience demons enough to be "true to myself" on the impertant stuff.

but it is an endless battle within myself and no sure outcome either way.

duszek wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 2:22 pm

Skip wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:06 pm

duszek wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:30 am One sort of lie to oneself is rationalizing.

.....Does it sound convincing to anyone ?

Only to the one who is determined to convince himself.
And if you think that's self-deception, you should read some religious apologetics, or nationalist jingo.

Yes, Skip.
But why is this person trying to convince himself of something at all ?
Why this effort of self-conviction ?

This question needs to be answered too, somehow at least.

to sooth his conscience of course. each of us is a multiple (one conscience the other the subconscience).

maybe - with social pressure the guy decided being single might imply he was less than his neighbor (or even gay! - like gays don't marry opposite sexes (for their similar "social pressures/games).so he ended up marrying a gal he knew he could (knew since childhood/etc.............) - but not attracted to.

then out if his "Game" of letting the "jones dictate is life - "get married!" ----have 2.3 kids and dog/fence/house etc............instead of seeing he married the wrong women, instead makes up excuses as to why he cheats on her.

I'm single - and i sure many folks think i'm gay. i don't mind them. only wish i was not so particular, but am. my willy likes only extreme pearshaped gals (wide hips only!) - too rare "out their" and to date the few that i've found did not work out.

single for life probably.

ok by me as long as its for the right reasons.

Beauty wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 10:10 am
But I don't think anyone could have a split personality because like what would it mean?

[/quote]


movie Sybil was a little "over the top" (but a good flick) - however it was apt.

"spit personality" (dissociative dissorder) exists.

it is the common "Defense mechonism" for all that were sexually abused since infancy on a regular basis.

Beauty wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 10:10 am If you take psychopaths for example,

why you taking them as an example - they lack moral compass for other reasons.

they are not relivant to "split personality" folks.

I do not appreciate your implied equivalency here.

"split peronsonality" folks are screwed up but have a moral compass.

unlike psychopaths.

Beauty wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 10:10 am they know that they are evil

wrong. psychopaths have an undeveloped forbrain(or whatever center that is where the moral compass resides) - they HAVE NO CLUE THEY ARE EVIL.

they don't care either way also (also a product of their illness)...........i.e. a lack of self awareness.

Beauty wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 10:10 am relishing another's pain and giving people pain 'cause they find it enjoyable,

this is true - due for whatver reason, psychopath's lack a brain that give pleasure in the normal events of the day, and they have to do to extemes - like torcure/or similar - for the less afflicted maybe a simple burgury/shoplifting will make them "feel alive".

,,why you talking about them and not the "spit personality folks" who do feel and make up "other identities" to deal with their travails.


- those two types of folks are opposites in fact!

one is like you and me - but messed up - they feel!

the other only feels when they commit crimes/ or kill - depending upon how "far gone" they are.