There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:33 pm
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You save yourself.
You create your own heaven or hell.
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You save yourself.
You create your own heaven or hell.
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There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Page 1 of 3
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You save yourself.
You create your own heaven or hell.
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Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:50 pm
That's what the Taoist believe. I'm not sure why one has to refer to heaven or hell, two imaginary places though.
Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:41 pm
Knowledge is a justified belief.Science Fan wrote: ↑Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:50 pm That's what the Taoist believe. I'm not sure why one has to refer to heaven or hell, two imaginary places though.
You do not need knowledge aka a justified belief in order to BE
Being is not a belief.
To BE is not imagined. IT IS ..without doubt or error.
But to be some thing, you need the justified belief in that thing...the knowledge of it to be it.
Knowledge of otherness, aka things separate from pure being is an illusion...it's just a belief, a fiction...believed to be real.
Heaven or Hell are not places, they are fictional beliefs, they are states of mind. The mind is actually a placeless place. A stateless state. It creates it's own reality out of itself.
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Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:35 pm
Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:07 pm
A JOURNEY WITHOUT JOURNEYING
Meher Baba
The succession of experiences that one goes through in the process of involution is called the Spiritual Path, and the going through them is likened to a journey. On one stage you hear melodious sounds and music that enchant and overwhelm you. On another stage you see wonderful visions in which most often you get lost. Such experiences are part and parcel of the Great Dream in Illusion, though together they may be call a real or super Dream compared with day to day experiences of the gross sphere.
The experiences are so innumerable and varied, that the journey appears to be interminable and the Destination is ever out of sight. But the wonder of it is, when at last you reach your Destination you find that you had never travelled at all! It was a journey from here to Here. As one Sufi expressed it, When I plucked the date (Fruit of Realization) I found the fruit was within me.
The journey seems infinitely long while you are passing through the dream-experiences of reincarnation and the six planes of involution, until finally you merge into yourself to emerge as Self. But the journey is after all no journey: it is simply the momentum of your urge to awaken from the Dream and get established in the reality of the God-state of Infinite Consciousness. To awaken means to consciously experience the sound-sleep State of God. When you awake you find that the Great Dream containing all the varied illusory aspects of dreaming, has vanished forever. Heaven and hell as well as all the planes vanish within your Self, to remain as nothing. In this Awakened State, there is no scope for anything besides you — the Self, the Existence eternal and infinite.
This is the only Experience worth experiencing and aspiring after. To gain this Experience you have to become as dust at the feet of the Perfect Master — which amounts to becoming as nothing. And, when you become absolutely nothing, you become Everything.
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Meher Baba
The succession of experiences that one goes through in the process of involution is called the Spiritual Path, and the going through them is likened to a journey. On one stage you hear melodious sounds and music that enchant and overwhelm you. On another stage you see wonderful visions in which most often you get lost. Such experiences are part and parcel of the Great Dream in Illusion, though together they may be call a real or super Dream compared with day to day experiences of the gross sphere.
The experiences are so innumerable and varied, that the journey appears to be interminable and the Destination is ever out of sight. But the wonder of it is, when at last you reach your Destination you find that you had never travelled at all! It was a journey from here to Here. As one Sufi expressed it, When I plucked the date (Fruit of Realization) I found the fruit was within me.
The journey seems infinitely long while you are passing through the dream-experiences of reincarnation and the six planes of involution, until finally you merge into yourself to emerge as Self. But the journey is after all no journey: it is simply the momentum of your urge to awaken from the Dream and get established in the reality of the God-state of Infinite Consciousness. To awaken means to consciously experience the sound-sleep State of God. When you awake you find that the Great Dream containing all the varied illusory aspects of dreaming, has vanished forever. Heaven and hell as well as all the planes vanish within your Self, to remain as nothing. In this Awakened State, there is no scope for anything besides you — the Self, the Existence eternal and infinite.
This is the only Experience worth experiencing and aspiring after. To gain this Experience you have to become as dust at the feet of the Perfect Master — which amounts to becoming as nothing. And, when you become absolutely nothing, you become Everything.
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Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:55 pm
Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:31 pm
With the increase in knowledge, what we observed/percieve/etc., comes an increase in understanding the nature of the world and its inherent vanity and contradiction. This knowledge of contradiction, as a deficiency in reason, in turn reflects back to the individual as a form of "sorrow". (there is some german term for this I cannot remember). Sorrow as a deficiency of a joy ,which unifies the individual's emotional state (as joy is a result of internal and external congruency and structure conducive to the fruitful well being of the individual) has a "wounding" effect on the soul in the respect it pulls itself apart.
We can see this in cases of loss, whether of a friend, loved one, lover, job, etc. in which a person's identity is not just integrated in but extends through the inherent loss. In simpler terms I extended myself through "x" and "x" became a part of me, "x" was lost, hence a part of myself and my ability to extend myself is missing. At that emotional level this constitutes sorrow as the heart, metaphorically speaking, becomes "fractured" or "broken".
The ability to reason in turn mirrors this fracturing process, in some degree or another, as self-evidence "through the axiom" has an inherent subjective element extending from the "heart" where all "possibilities" exist.
With this increase of knowledge comes an inherent wounding of the heart as possibilities become objectified and solidified into something cold and lifeless. This sacrifice of possibility through the limits of reason in one respects observes a continual move toward nothingness as reason itself inevitably arises from and ends in paradoxes and contradictions. In these respects reason, through the application of logic, sacrifices possibility for the sake of order.
The paradox again occurs where this rational structure in itself ends with further paradoxes that necessitate a form of possibility considering "limit" exists through "no-limit" much in the same manner "reason" exists through "possibility". We can observe "limit" through "order" as fundamentally "male", where "no-limit" through "dis-order" as feminine. In practical terms man exists through woman, which cycles back to woman existing through man, and a dualistic paradox occurs resulting in a synthesis where a "relationship" or "child" is formed as a triadic element which stabilizes both while maintaining their identities. This "relationship" or "child" is a sacrifice of the parents through each other.
Limit (or reason) must sacrifice its through "possibility" in order to exist. Possibility must exist through limit (or reason) in order to exist. Limit sacrifices possibility by giving it order and making it a part of itself. Possibility sacrifices limit by giving it a means to move through and project itself.
Practically we can see this absence where a men left on his own ends up destroying himself or others. A woman, left alone, ends up nurturing everyone and everything which in turn destroys herself and others. A sacrifice of "limit" through "possibility" (male through female) and "possibility" through "limit" (female through male), enables a synthesis where truth exists not just through an objective list of axioms but at the practical level where a balance is maintained.
Love as the embracement and rejection of everything, at the same time in different respects, manifests itself much like a deep wound that is paradoxically optimistic. Sacrifice is necessary in one respect as love must order things for things to exist...this order requires a sacrifice in itself, usually of oneself as the subjective nature, which constitutes our very fabric, must move towards structure if anything is to exist. At the same time this "existence" requires no-limit (or possibility) to move through.
In these respects sacrifice, as a movement beyond oneself in which one is "pulled" out of oneself through another or "penetrated/pushed" (not to being taken in a strictly physical manner), cause a form of synthesis that allows being to exist from nothing through nothing. In these respects there is no sacrifice as what exists, just "is", yet in a separate respect sacrifice is everything.
To get back to the original premise of Knowledge, in how we understand it as both "limit" and "no-limit" (as one of its foundations), we can observe that knowledge (and its attainment) both is a sacrifice and requires a sacrifice.
Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:05 am
Thanks for the well written clarification. I do understand how you've put this.
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My thoughts ...
Knowledge is suffering on the human level.
But also, knowledge informs illusory life..in that there is not a 'someone' living life except as assumed, and the opposite is also true, there is 'no one' living life, and 'no one' is 'everyone', aka 'everything' aka' nothing'..and there lies the freedom to be, there is no sacrifice made, you are freedom in every moment, free to choose how you want to feel - be it happy or miserable. With Knowledge - come the opposites, so what ever you want, the opposite is also born, so becoming attached to one particular way of feeling brings suffering when the fear of losing that feeling is there also.
Attachment to things that are constantly changing from one moment to the next, and are not a solid state that we can keep tightly within our grasp, while thinking we can is our suffering...so in essence nothing stays, but the nothing itself, and that is the freedom right there...there's an energetic shift in perception into this ultimate freedom of letting go of attachments to things that are constantly changing, things that are unavailable to us, freedom is noticing what doesn't change - the centre of beingness where no outcome is expected or desired, it is here in that still centre of awareness lies the ultimate freedom that is always here right now being everything.
But this recognition of what never changes, is available to all of us, and not just for the one who truly masters the art of being, and yet it's not for everyone, obviously not everyone is strong enough to endure their own emptiness or stay with it without the urge to constantly fill that void up with things which is futile anyway, for that which is only and ever void can never be filled, and yet when the desire to stop filling that which cannot be filled is surrendered to, it is seen that this void is full to the brim with itself anyway, and that it is totally fulfilled in every moment.
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When you win you lose, and when you lose you win. Any sacrifice is pure illusory..everything is you and nothing is you.
.
*
My thoughts ...
Knowledge is suffering on the human level.
But also, knowledge informs illusory life..in that there is not a 'someone' living life except as assumed, and the opposite is also true, there is 'no one' living life, and 'no one' is 'everyone', aka 'everything' aka' nothing'..and there lies the freedom to be, there is no sacrifice made, you are freedom in every moment, free to choose how you want to feel - be it happy or miserable. With Knowledge - come the opposites, so what ever you want, the opposite is also born, so becoming attached to one particular way of feeling brings suffering when the fear of losing that feeling is there also.
Attachment to things that are constantly changing from one moment to the next, and are not a solid state that we can keep tightly within our grasp, while thinking we can is our suffering...so in essence nothing stays, but the nothing itself, and that is the freedom right there...there's an energetic shift in perception into this ultimate freedom of letting go of attachments to things that are constantly changing, things that are unavailable to us, freedom is noticing what doesn't change - the centre of beingness where no outcome is expected or desired, it is here in that still centre of awareness lies the ultimate freedom that is always here right now being everything.
But this recognition of what never changes, is available to all of us, and not just for the one who truly masters the art of being, and yet it's not for everyone, obviously not everyone is strong enough to endure their own emptiness or stay with it without the urge to constantly fill that void up with things which is futile anyway, for that which is only and ever void can never be filled, and yet when the desire to stop filling that which cannot be filled is surrendered to, it is seen that this void is full to the brim with itself anyway, and that it is totally fulfilled in every moment.
.
When you win you lose, and when you lose you win. Any sacrifice is pure illusory..everything is you and nothing is you.
.
Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:28 pm
This "illusion" in itself is the limit of reality...to sum everything up.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:05 am Thanks for the well written clarification. I do understand how you've put this.
*
My thoughts ...
Knowledge is suffering on the human level.
But also, knowledge informs illusory life..in that there is not a 'someone' living life except as assumed, and the opposite is also true, there is 'no one' living life, and 'no one' is 'everyone', aka 'everything' aka' nothing'..and there lies the freedom to be, there is no sacrifice made, you are freedom in every moment, free to choose how you want to feel - be it happy or miserable. With Knowledge - come the opposites, so what ever you want, the opposite is also born, so becoming attached to one particular way of feeling brings suffering when the fear of losing that feeling is there also.
Attachment to things that are constantly changing from one moment to the next, and are not a solid state that we can keep tightly within our grasp, while thinking we can is our suffering...so in essence nothing stays, but the nothing itself, and that is the freedom right there...there's an energetic shift in perception into this ultimate freedom of letting go of attachments to things that are constantly changing, things that are unavailable to us, freedom is noticing what doesn't change - the centre of beingness where no outcome is expected or desired, it is here in that still centre of awareness lies the ultimate freedom that is always here right now being everything.
But this recognition of what never changes, is available to all of us, and not just for the one who truly masters the art of being, and yet it's not for everyone, obviously not everyone is strong enough to endure their own emptiness or stay with it without the urge to constantly fill that void up with things which is futile anyway, for that which is only and ever void can never be filled, and yet when the desire to stop filling that which cannot be filled is surrendered to, it is seen that this void is full to the brim with itself anyway, and that it is totally fulfilled in every moment.
.
When you win you lose, and when you lose you win. Any sacrifice is pure illusory..everything is you and nothing is you.
.
Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:26 pm
Dontaskme wrote: You save yourself.
You create your own heaven or hell..
Everywhere else you claim there is no 'You' or 'your'?Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:24 am
Just to clarify, there is no ''separate you''. There is no you because there is no other than you.Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:26 pmDontaskme wrote: You save yourself.
You create your own heaven or hell..
The one looking out of your eyes is the same one looking out of every living organisms eye.
The 'separate you' is an 'appearance' in oneness inseparable from it. No thing is separate from source. And source is not a thing.
When we refer to the separate I concept, we are talking about characters within the dream of separation, the dream dreamt by no one aka SELF without an object dreaming it is an object.
In the dream it appears the characters are the doers, but they are the action figures of doing, no thing is doing life, life is doing itself all alone, it is the mind within the human character that creates the assumed separate character, that then believes it is the doer, but characters appear as conceptual knowledge, and knowledge never did anything, knowledge only informs the illusory nature of a reality appearing as if by magic real when it's not..as the words are believed to be what they inform...see my ''how reality really is made of magic'' thread in the lounge - it explains how words which are really thoughts create the human world of things and others...that are not really there.
In the dream.. life can be heaven or hell, but that in which these ideas are arising, is neither heaven or hell, but the neutral space aka awareness in which the idea of heaven and hell is a dream arising in awareness.
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Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:40 pm
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:24 amJust to clarify, there is no ''separate you''. There is no you because there is no other than you.Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:26 pmDontaskme wrote: You save yourself.
You create your own heaven or hell..
So why are you telling yourself that their is no separate you? If their is "no" separation then what is seperation? If it is a lie, or a deficiency in truth, how can that be considering deficiency in itself is a form of seperation?
The one looking out of your eyes is the same one looking out of every living organisms eye.
The 'separate you' is an 'appearance' in oneness inseparable from it. No thing is separate from source. And source is not a thing.
When we refer to the separate I concept, we are talking about characters within the dream of separation, the dream dreamt by no one aka SELF without an object dreaming it is an object.
In the dream it appears the characters are the doers, but they are the action figures of doing, no thing is doing life, life is doing itself all alone, it is the mind within the human character that creates the assumed separate character, that then believes it is the doer, but characters appear as conceptual knowledge, and knowledge never did anything, knowledge only informs the illusory nature of a reality appearing as if by magic real when it's not..as the words are believed to be what they inform...see my ''how reality really is made of magic'' thread in the lounge - it explains how words which are really thoughts create the human world of things and others...that are not really there.
In the dream.. life can be heaven or hell, but that in which these ideas are arising, is neither heaven or hell, but the neutral space aka awareness in which the idea of heaven and hell is a dream arising in awareness.
.
.
Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:43 pm
''Separation'' is a ''known concept'' of consciousness the only knowing there is. It's an idea, a thought. Consciousness has never seen itself, it only knows itself by being itself. So concepts don't actually exist in and of them selves independent of the knower.
So every time a word is spoken by consciousness that word is a concept known to consciousness only.
It's not a concept that knows it's a concept.
For example: a tree does not know it is a tree, therefore it is not a tree. A tree is a known image of consciousness which is imageless.
Consciousness has to be imageless for an image to appear just as a tv screen has to be blank and empty for the images to appear coherent and recognised and known, and just as the images on a tv screen are inseaparable from the screen, so too are known concepts inseparable from consciousness which is imageless. Rending the concepts nothing more than mirages or dream characters appearing as if they were real. But there is nothing behind an image but emptiness. So a tree is no thing treeing. Sounds weird, but that's how it is.
There is no other outside meaning other than what you personally perceive your reality to be. Words are just the perception of the perceiver which is empty consciousness. Objects are given names and those names are believed to exist as separate things but there is absolute nothing separating reality whatsoever except the word which is not any thing at all...appearing in the same not a thing, rendering knowledge an illusory appearance of not a thing..aka consciousness.
We've all got the same consciousness and we all project objects outside of our consciousness, these objects are conceptual images they have no reality in and of themselves separate from the projector. No object has ever been seen, all objects are known, never seen. No one is seeing, there is only seeing that has never been seen.
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Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:27 pm
The problem occurs, in summarizing the above, if everything is strictly subjective and objectivity is strictly a deficiency in subjectivity, then the subjective is not unified because of the objective?Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:43 pm''Separation'' is a ''known concept'' of consciousness the only knowing there is. It's an idea, a thought. Consciousness has never seen itself, it only knows itself by being itself. So concepts don't actually exist in and of them selves independent of the knower.
So every time a word is spoken by consciousness that word is a concept known to consciousness only.
It's not a concept that knows it's a concept.
For example: a tree does not know it is a tree, therefore it is not a tree. A tree is a known image of consciousness which is imageless.
Consciousness has to be imageless for an image to appear just as a tv screen has to be blank and empty for the images to appear coherent and recognised and known, and just as the images on a tv screen are inseaparable from the screen, so too are known concepts inseparable from consciousness which is imageless. Rending the concepts nothing more than mirages or dream characters appearing as if they were real. But there is nothing behind an image but emptiness. So a tree is no thing treeing. Sounds weird, but that's how it is.
There is no other outside meaning other than what you personally perceive your reality to be. Words are just the perception of the perceiver which is empty consciousness. Objects are given names and those names are believed to exist as separate things but there is absolute nothing separating reality whatsoever except the word which is not any thing at all...appearing in the same not a thing, rendering knowledge an illusory appearance of not a thing..aka consciousness.
We've all got the same consciousness and we all project objects outside of our consciousness, these objects are conceptual images they have no reality in and of themselves separate from the projector. No object has ever been seen, all objects are known, never seen. No one is seeing, there is only seeing that has never been seen.
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Re: There Was/Is No Sacrifice
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:20 pm
Why is it a problem?
Subjective consciousness objectifying itself is still a subjective perception.... perceptions that are all perceived by unity.
All perceptions are equally valid and true as they are perceived, all perceptions are all inclusive, just different expressions of the one source according to the particular level of experience and knowledge held in the perception.
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