Philosophy Now Forum

Euler080 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:37 pm This topic is posted here, to know on whether the conformations said below is what humans need to do, or not, from the stored data of other humans who see this post. And to know on other conformations or actions which humans need to do.

When understanding the nature of "need" a simple way of looking at it is as a "deficiency" or "negative". People in a state of "need" are in a state of "deficiency". Equate "need" with a "-" sign.

Do we make actions to eliminate certain conformations (the shape or structure of something), similar to pain, or any other such unknown conformation?
Certain actions give us "structure" both to ourselves and our environments around us. Considering that pain is also a deficiency (whether intellectual, spiritual/emotional, physical) what most "good" actions do is give structure.

Do we know what conformations are to be eliminated on living, or after death (if conformations exist there)?
That is what these forums discussions attempt to explore...the nature of life, death and everything in between.


Do we know all the data to know on what conformations are to be eliminated or attained?
No in one respect as all "modalities" are difficult to percieve. Yes in a seperate respect as certain "universals" give an approximate all-encompassing view of knowledge.

Can we know all the data before death?
See above point.

If we die before knowing all the data, can we be not able to do actions to eliminate certain conformations coming after it?
That is what we are all here to find out.

Do we need to do actions to allow us know all (or most of) the data and to do actions to attain the needed utilities?
The act of observing through the intellect, emotion, and body help in this endeavor "to attain the needed utilities?" For the record not everything has to be limited to a "utility".

To know all or most of the data, do we need to increase the lifespan of humans, if needed, after estimating the time needed to know most of the data or the conformations coming after death?

The propogation of the human race through time/space and the infinite capacity of the human spirit allows this (considering this is where the "axiom" of infinity comes from).

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm Do we make actions to eliminate certain conformations (the shape or structure of something), similar to pain, or any other such unknown conformation?
Certain actions give us "structure" both to ourselves and our environments around us. Considering that pain is also a deficiency (whether intellectual, spiritual/emotional, physical) what most "good" actions do is give structure.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm Do we know all the data to know on what conformations are to be eliminated or attained?
No in one respect as all "modalities" are difficult to percieve. Yes in a seperate respect as certain "universals" give an approximate all-encompassing view of knowledge.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm Do we need to do actions to allow us know all (or most of) the data and to do actions to attain the needed utilities?
The act of observing through the intellect, emotion, and body help in this endeavor "to attain the needed utilities?" For the record not everything has to be limited to a "utility".

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm To know all or most of the data, do we need to increase the lifespan of humans, if needed, after estimating the time needed to know most of the data or the conformations coming after death?

The propogation of the human race through time/space and the infinite capacity of the human spirit allows this (considering this is where the "axiom" of infinity comes from).

Euler080 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:09 am Sorry for being late in replying back.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm Do we make actions to eliminate certain conformations (the shape or structure of something), similar to pain, or any other such unknown conformation?
Certain actions give us "structure" both to ourselves and our environments around us. Considering that pain is also a deficiency (whether intellectual, spiritual/emotional, physical) what most "good" actions do is give structure.

Sorry, I couldn't understand you here.

Are you considering pain as need, by the words "pain is also a deficiency"?

Good question. Pain can be observed as a deficiency in something, let's take health for example. I sprain an ankle...the pain is a deficiency in the strength of my ankle. In a seperate respect the sensation of pain is an observation of a weakness that allows me to not put further pressure on the injured area.

Isn't elimination of pain or any other such similar conformations, a need?
Since pain corresponds to any form of deficiency the removal of pain "implies" a removal of the deficiency.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm Do we know all the data to know on what conformations are to be eliminated or attained?
No in one respect as all "modalities" are difficult to percieve. Yes in a seperate respect as certain "universals" give an approximate all-encompassing view of knowledge.

It seems that we can't sense certain wavelengths, and similarly we may not have all the parts which can give the complete experience. I agree with you; can we then make certain parts which can give us this indirect experience of what we can't experience, similar to what is made in science, for seeing something which we can't sense or see?
If we are able to understand that we cannot sense certain wavelengths (such as through the physical senses), in many respects we still "sense" them through the application of logic.

If I know that a wavelength exists that cannot be seen, I still may not be able to "see" it, however through the application of logic I am still able to observe certain "degrees" of it. Reason on its own terms can act as a "light".


Though this seems to be a later part/process in the action of knowing all or most of the data. You seem to be at least agreeing on the need of knowing all or most of the data.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm Do we need to do actions to allow us know all (or most of) the data and to do actions to attain the needed utilities?
The act of observing through the intellect, emotion, and body help in this endeavor "to attain the needed utilities?" For the record not everything has to be limited to a "utility".

I need to still think on whether everything need not be limited to utility or not.

Well look at what "utility" is; "utility" stems from "use". When we "use" something what we are doing is making an object a mediator between ourselves and something else. In this respect "use" is mediation, or the ability to take something and use it as a "bridge" to something or somewhere else entirely.

Take for example a I want to drive a nail into a board. Could I use my hand to slowly push the nail in? Probably not, and if so it would be very difficult and inefficient. What I do is use a tool, in this case a hammer, as "a median" that bridges the gap between myself and the nail being driven into the board.

The same occurs with other forms and functions of living. Take for instance this discussion. Both of us use "words" as a median between what is axiomatic to you and what is axiomatic to me, this in turn results in further axioms for both of us.

These axioms usually take the form of "symbols", in this case "words" (or pictures), which act as "median" points. In these respects, language itself (specifically the fields of mathematics you are studying) maintain their "utility" by providing a "means".

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm To know all or most of the data, do we need to increase the lifespan of humans, if needed, after estimating the time needed to know most of the data or the conformations coming after death?

The propogation of the human race through time/space and the infinite capacity of the human spirit allows this (considering this is where the "axiom" of infinity comes from).

Important: I didn't understand this. Are you agreeing on my next actions of increasing lifespan for knowing all or most of the data, to eliminate all the unknown conformations similar to pain?
People propagate across time and space through the act of reproduction. Through children a person manifests a continual degree of themselves across time and space. Do they manifests themselves completely? No, just a degree. In this respect the act of having children can be equivalent to a low grade of reincarnation.

In regards to "extending" your individual lifespan, you can do it if you want, but the question is "why"? I ask this question because of a simple premise: Eternity.

If man is strictly a temporal being only, one that does not last, he still have to answer where the "utility" of "eternity" came from as their is no empirical evidence for it except strict self-evidence....and self-evidence is not limited to the empirical as it is the foundations for the empirical.

If we can reflect into eternity, and eternity can reflect into us then to a degree we are eternal.


I am going to start making actions for this. Before doing this, I needed to know on whether there is any other action allowing to attain utility in least time or not.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:25 pm ..Pain can be observed as a deficiency in something, let's take health for example. I sprain an ankle...the pain is a deficiency in the strength of my ankle. In a seperate respect the sensation of pain is an observation of a weakness that allows me to not put further pressure on the injured area.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:25 pm In regards to "extending" your individual lifespan, you can do it if you want, but the question is "why"? I ask this question because of a simple premise: Eternity.

Euler080 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:27 pm Thank you for the reply.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:25 pm ..Pain can be observed as a deficiency in something, let's take health for example. I sprain an ankle...the pain is a deficiency in the strength of my ankle. In a seperate respect the sensation of pain is an observation of a weakness that allows me to not put further pressure on the injured area.

Pain may indicate a problematic conformation which is to be looked; it might have evolved for us. Can we have conformations to indicate any problem without having the pain sensation?
Would they be conformations then?

Why to have that paining sensation to know a problem, if that can be known without it?
Can it be known without it?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:25 pm In regards to "extending" your individual lifespan, you can do it if you want, but the question is "why"? I ask this question because of a simple premise: Eternity.

Do we know complete data? No? How do we know on what happens to us after death?
Knowing is justified belief as the nature of the axioms which present us knowledge are "self" (subjective) "evidence" (objective).

We may face different conformations which we may not know?
Yes, ignorance is a part of life.

Why to die, without knowing on what happens to us?
Using the question below, to answer this one: If we don't know what happens to us at death how can we effectively question the nature of death?

Do we then need to know on what happens after death, and then make a decision of what to do, if we need to, can we then die?
Do you believe you need to make a decision?

Is this a need and not want?
Is that what you believe? Knowing is not always needed, oftentimes it is strictly desire.

Who knows on we as to be there always (eternity?)
If you are to question eternity then you would have to question yourself for observing the concept.

and on what happens to us?
Does it matter to you?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:30 pm Pain may indicate a problematic conformation which is to be looked; it might have evolved for us. Can we have conformations to indicate any problem without having the pain sensation?
Would they be conformations then?

Why to have that paining sensation to know a problem, if that can be known without it?
Can it be known without it?

In regards to "extending" your individual lifespan, you can do it if you want, but the question is "why"? I ask this question because of a simple premise: Eternity.
Do we know complete data? No? How do we know on what happens to us after death?
Knowing is justified belief as the nature of the axioms which present us knowledge are "self" (subjective) "evidence" (objective).

We may face different conformations which we may not know?
Yes, ignorance is a part of life.

Why to die, without knowing on what happens to us?
Using the question below, to answer this one: If we don't know what happens to us at death how can we effectively question the nature of death?

Do we then need to know on what happens after death, and then make a decision of what to do, if we need to, can we then die?
Do you believe you need to make a decision?

Is this a need and not want?
Is that what you believe? Knowing is not always needed, oftentimes it is strictly desire.

Who knows on we as to be there always (eternity?)
If you are to question eternity then you would have to question yourself for observing the concept.

and on what happens to us?
Does it matter to you?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:44 pm Euler if you really want to understand philosophy you will have to come to terms with the nature of the paradox (such as positive/negative values) as the majority of philosophy (and science/mathematics) for that matter usually begins and ends with axioms which are paradoxes in themselves.

It is in understanding this simple unavoidable axiom with all philosophy, that we are better able to synthesize the answers we either want or need and gain a greater sense of stability in both ourselves and in observing the environment around us.

By observing the paradox as inevitable we can understand that the answers we both find, and further seek, are merely approximates (or shadows) of some greater and deeper truth.

The world does not necessarily have to make "sense" in order to "make sense".

Euler080 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:38 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:30 pm Pain may indicate a problematic conformation which is to be looked; it might have evolved for us. Can we have conformations to indicate any problem without having the pain sensation?
Would they be conformations then?

If we have other ways of indicating us the problem, won't there be parts (conformations) which indicate the problem?
A deficiency in something, or even a part, indicates its deficiency on its own terms and in relation to other parts.

Why to have that paining sensation to know a problem, if that can be known without it?
Can it be known without it?

We might need to know more data, to know on whether it is possible or not.
Research Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

In regards to "extending" your individual lifespan, you can do it if you want, but the question is "why"? I ask this question because of a simple premise: Eternity.
Do we know complete data? No? How do we know on what happens to us after death?
Knowing is justified belief as the nature of the axioms which present us knowledge are "self" (subjective) "evidence" (objective).

I don't know what this above statement is implying.

We understand reality through self-evidence. If we "know" there is incomplete data, by default we observe a whole statement. What we understand of reality, and its corresponding truths, breaks down to a duality of unity and multiplicity.

We may face different conformations which we may not know?
Yes, ignorance is a part of life.

We are ignorant, do we not know more data?
More data in what regards exactly? If there is infinite data and we know more than we did prior, there is still an infinite more to learn. What we did learn, relative to infinity, is still the same "size". It is only "more" if we compare it to the data itself.
Do we not need to know data to eliminate unknown conformations, which may give conformations similar to pain or any other unknown?
Yes and no in different respecsts

Would you go to death without knowing on what comes to you, without even trying to know data?
Yes, we all do.

Why to die, without knowing on what happens to us?
Using the question below, to answer this one: If we don't know what happens to us at death how can we effectively question the nature of death?

We don't know what happens to us at death, are we not in need to know it, then later, can we not decide, on whether to die or not?

Death may have also the possibility of giving all the utilities to us, or may not. Who knows?
Death, no...death is strictly and absence and nothing more...and absences have their limits too. Life after death? Most possible.
Can death at different age, give different conformations after it?
It is possible.

How to know then on when to die?
Why the desire to know?

Can the conformation of knowing data itself not allow attaining utility which would be known from complete data?
Yes, take for instance the conversations we have been having. Both you and I learn something more from eachone, we can obtain more "utility" from them however we cannot observe the complete "Utility/Meaning" that would arrive with complete "data".

Can every conformation which we do have possibility of not allowing us to attain utility?
It depends on how you utilize it.

Then do we not do any conformations?
We are observing structure right now, and at the same time its limits. The answer is yes and no.

We may have one possibility to test all the possibilities by making machines do those possibilities.
Check Godel's incompleteness theorems as stated above. A machine can only check these possibilities if and only if it can run for eternity, however an eternal machine is theoretically not possible in the respect that all machines are strictly the synthesis of natural materials which "move" or "erode" over time.

Which action would you do, if the conformation of not knowing data has the possibility of allowing to attain utility, from the data/conformation, not known to us?
The wise know their ignorance, the fools do not. What would "I" do? Continue observing.


And if the conformation of not eating food, not drinking water, and making any action has the possibility of allowing to attain the utility, and if many many other conformation arrangement making alone has the possibility of allowing to attain utility, which conformation would you do?

Only what was necessary.

Similarly, we can consider many other conformation arrangements as to be not allowing us to attain utility, due to not known data/conformation. Then, how to know on what to do?

Observe the nature of the arrangements and how their boundaries interact with each other.

Knowing data seems to allow knowing on what conformations would come after doing the actions known from it, and seems to at last, if not possible to know data and do action, similar to other actions/possibilities, we may be doing blind action of not knowing what would happen. Then why not choose knowing data and doing actions?
Knowing has its limits.

This looks like a game of chance nature.
If that is so, and it is a game of chance, then we are observing a "constant" and it is no longer fully a game of chance.

Do we not need to know optimal actions to try to our extreme, to know our utilities and to attain it?
Know your needs, options can be blinding.

Do we then need to know on what happens after death, and then make a decision of what to do, if we need to, can we then die?
Do you believe you need to make a decision?

Is this a need and not want?
Is that what you believe? Knowing is not always needed, oftentimes it is strictly desire.

Sorry, I seem to have been not clear. I was saying on your sentence ""extending" your individual lifespan, you can do it if you want". I was questioning on extension of life span as the need or want?

If the sole is immortal, as an extension of the logos, than in many respects it may have chose its own lifespan.

However, for what we know here, it primarily appears that it is a want as one cannot chose their death always.

And knowing seems to be needed in certain context; if we don't know on where the hospital is, can we go to hospital? If we don't know on how to do anything, can we do it? They seem to be needed for the utility of survival. Yeah, we may not know about softwares which we don't use, or may not know on company, which we are not going to deal with. Yeah, knowing is needed in certain context and not in another.

Who knows on we as to be there always (eternity?)
If you are to question eternity then you would have to question yourself for observing the concept.

How does me observing anything, say on me being their always?

and on what happens to us?
Does it matter to you?

What would you do, if after death, you are there in certain conformation and are burnt all the time, or are subjected to any such unknown conformations?
"Burning" is a good way to view the unknown. Under such circumstances one must learn how to get past oneself.

Does that not matter to you?
No.

We don't know what happens?
In a sense we do know what happens when we question "what happens after death?". This is because we observe that death, as a limit, is not limited to itself.

Do we not know and do actions?
If you want advice, then find someone or something, to place ahead of your own cares and worries. Learn to get outside of yourself.

If you want advice, then find someone or something, to place ahead of your own cares and worries. Learn to get outside of yourself.

and on what happens to us?
Does it matter to you?
What would you do, if after death, you are there in certain conformation and are burnt all the time, or are subjected to any such unknown conformations?
"Burning" is a good way to view the unknown. Under such circumstances one must learn how to get past oneself.

Death may have also the possibility of giving all the utilities to us, or may not. Who knows?
Death, no...death is strictly and absence and nothing more...and absences have their limits too. Life after death? Most possible.

Euler080 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:22 pm Thank you for the reply.

If you want advice, then find someone or something, to place ahead of your own cares and worries. Learn to get outside of yourself.

Sorry, if the question-expression everywhere, is looking me as to be expressing, cares and worries (in your words). I am expressing everything in question form, to avoid assumption of a particular case, and to allow updating it when more data is known.

and on what happens to us?
Does it matter to you?
What would you do, if after death, you are there in certain conformation and are burnt all the time, or are subjected to any such unknown conformations?
"Burning" is a good way to view the unknown. Under such circumstances one must learn how to get past oneself.

Why not learn how to avoid such, before any such thing happens to us? Is not prevention better than cure?
Both are different degree of struggle. One may be weak willed but enjoy eating and drinking, get sick through poor diet and need a cure...in this respect their is a deficiency. In another respect one may be strong willed, eat well and not enjoy anything and still maintain a sickness of the spirit.

Cure and prevention are the same things when seeking knowledge as a form of "mediation".

[I will reply to other statements, but thought to narrow down first to important questions]

Euler080 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:28 pm

Death may have also the possibility of giving all the utilities to us, or may not. Who knows?
Death, no...death is strictly and absence and nothing more...and absences have their limits too. Life after death? Most possible.

What is the proof for saying death as strictly absence?

What would you do, if after death, you are there in certain conformation and are burnt all the time, or are subjected to any such unknown conformations?
"Burning" is a good way to view the unknown. Under such circumstances one must learn how to get past oneself.

Why not learn how to avoid such, before any such thing happens to us? Is not prevention better than cure?
Both are different degree of struggle. One may be weak willed but enjoy eating and drinking, get sick through poor diet and need a cure...in this respect their is a deficiency. In another respect one may be strong willed, eat well and not enjoy anything and still maintain a sickness of the spirit.

Cure and prevention are the same things when seeking knowledge as a form of "mediation".