Philosophy Now Forum

Why isn't this guy in charge of the U.K.? In America, he would be running the show. Corbyn and May just..... they are deeply uncharismatic, and I'm increasingly certain Corbyn was wheeled out of a elder care home somewhere, and he doesn't quite know where he is.

I also completely lack a understanding of how a shadow cabinet works. Is this like the deep state in America, but the U.K. just gave in and said from now on, we will always have a deep state cause it is so much fun to have?

And before someone makes this into a situation about Trump or Anti-Americanism, at least the US never had a president who stuck their penis inside the head of a decapitated pig. No way are you somehow better than us, except in the realm of pig carcass molestation. This thread is for explaining to Americans why your politics is so backwards, how it works.

So many questions, like the one already asked, but more:

1) Why isn't Nigel Farage running the show?
2) What the heck is a shadow government, and why aren't they locked up in the Tower of London for treason?
3) What's with the flower pot hats the women wear on dress up day?
4) Why isn't Guy Fawkes a national hero?
5) Are knighthoods by King Francis II recognized by your heraldic offices?
6) Can the Queen declare herself a pagan, sacrifice a virgin in Canterbury Cathedral to Marduk (the Protestant Canterbury, not the catholic one) and get away with it scot free, at least the first time around?
7) Can Scotland declare itself a republic and remain a part of the U.K.?
Do the border laws from the era of wars between Scotland and England still have any legal force in law?
9) Can the Queen pawn the Crown Jewels for new properties outside of the jurisdiction of the U.K. by her own authority?
10) Why isn't Nigel Farage President of England?
11) Why hasn't anyone called bullshit on the concept of a unwritten constitution?
12) Why not just conquer the Principality of Sealand?
13) Why do you guys kid yourselves with the idea that Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland, heck.... even London is a ipcountry, instead of just staying they are a province or state? They didn't come into the union freely, they got dragged in and tramp stamped by former kings. England clearly owns them, and I know London was feral land for a while in the Middle Ages, and was depopulated only later.... it sure the fuck isn't it's own country if other aspects of England stretching back to King Alfred preexists it, and can't be their own country as well. That's bullshit, someone tell London to shut up and just be a city.
14) Haggis from the U.K. Is illegal here, how can you subject people to that, don't you have health and safety laws? You can't own a gun, but you can have a haggis? That doesn't sound reasonable at all.
15) Why is Tea Time mandatory at set times, and why do the English (only country in the world to think so) think Oreo cookies threaten the stupid tea culture, and what the fuck is a Jammie dodger? Just dunk the Oreos in milk and shut up, everyone else on the planet does, even lactose intolerant nations do this.

I got more, lots more questions. You can go start a America thread, but this one is about the U.K. only, and the foreign exasperation of it's bizarre ways, explaining how the society and government works. Get as philosophical as you can. I want to see a grand theory for the silliness. I really don't get what the heck is going on there, and need it explained to me. Some things you only grasp when you live in the country, and don't think the U.K. understands how weird it is. We need some explanations. By we, I mean everyone not from the Isles. Weird place.

While I'm on the toilet, I got another too. Why do British people complain about American food when your the only country getting these fatburgs down in the sewers. You can't go around, eating stuff called spotted dick, or haggis, or organ meats, and then lecture us when these crazy monsters are growing below your streets. Half expect one to rise up like the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man from Ghost Busters and terrorize half of Wales before Royal Airforce Jets take it down with napalm in the middle of a crowded city.

This doesn't happen in America, or in other real countries for that matter. Weird cultural tradition.

This comes across as a comedy routine. 'What is it with....' But that only works if the audience recognise a grain of truth in what is being said.

On the other hand, there is another sort of routine where the comedian creates a crazy persona and mocks themselves, but again that only works where there is something the audience can sympathise with.

If you guys had ever heard a Scotsman playing a haggis you would know why we don't need guns.

Okay, stay on topic Londoner, answer one of the questions. This is about discussing the nuances of your country, and the larger theory of how it works based off the, not your ability to project insecurities of self upon others.

6) Can the Queen declare herself a pagan, sacrifice a virgin in Canterbury Cathedral to Marduk (the Protestant Canterbury, not the catholic one) and get away with it scot free, at least the first time around?

So you really and truly mean this as a serious question?

10) Why isn't Nigel Farage President of England?

You honestly don't know? No idea at all?

OK.

Actually, it is a pretty good question, regarding the powers of the queen, immunity to prosecution, actual extent of powers under parliamentary supremacy, her religious role. For example, prince Charles has been known to visit Mt Athos, a bastion of Greek Orthodoxy, which unlike England, has a legitimate apostolic succession and is a more conservative form of Catholicism. You had a prime minister convert to Catholicism as well. Your country also indulged a illegal overthrow of the king in favor of a new religion, one that coincidentally is dying off at a even higher curve than the British are.

Second question regarding a presidential Farage residing over the English Republic is no less insightful, given the religious schisms in place in England. Last time it was this messed up, the tudors were launching campaigns in Ireland and Cromwell was plotting a empire wide republic. Has England in the era of the Brexit, with Islam and Catholicism overtaking the old state religion, a general atheistic malaise taking root in the lazier, less intellectual quarters of society (winner takes all in regards to this population, atheists and agnostics don't long last as a culture, save on the tribal level). Seriously, why hasn't UKIP just deposed the monarchy, ruled as a republic? Both parties really suck, and the fact Farage got everyone on board on such a crucial matter as saving the U.K. shows he has political pull. Other nations have ditched parliaments to seek out a sounder presidential system.

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:53 pm Actually, it is a pretty good question, regarding the powers of the queen, immunity to prosecution, actual extent of powers under parliamentary supremacy, her religious role. For example, prince Charles has been known to visit Mt Athos, a bastion of Greek Orthodoxy, which unlike England, has a legitimate apostolic succession and is a more conservative form of Catholicism. You had a prime minister convert to Catholicism as well. Your country also indulged a illegal overthrow of the king in favor of a new religion, one that coincidentally is dying off at a even higher curve than the British are.

Since you evidently have no access to Google I will tell you that - just like the US President - the Queen as head of state cannot be prosecuted while she is in office. However, if she committed murder she would have broken her coronation oath and would be impeached, again just like the US President would be.

Briefly, the Orthodox Church is not 'a more conservative form of Catholicism'. The PM can be any religion they want. If you are referring to the Revolution of 1688, the legal basis was a Bill passed by Parliament declaring the King had broken his oath.

Second question regarding a presidential Farage residing over the English Republic is no less insightful, given the religious schisms in place in England.

The reasons Farage is not President of the English Republic are (a) England is not a republic (b) it does not have a president and (c) at the last election Farage's political party won zero of 650 constituencies.

Last time it was this messed up, the tudors were launching campaigns in Ireland and Cromwell was plotting a empire wide republic. Has England in the era of the Brexit, with Islam and Catholicism overtaking the old state religion, a general atheistic malaise taking root in the lazier, less intellectual quarters of society (winner takes all in regards to this population, atheists and agnostics don't long last as a culture, save on the tribal level). Seriously, why hasn't UKIP just deposed the monarchy, ruled as a republic? Both parties really suck, and the fact Farage got everyone on board on such a crucial matter as saving the U.K. shows he has political pull. Other nations have ditched parliaments to seek out a sounder presidential system.

Why not try to find out about the UK, then you might be able to answer your own questions?

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:Why isn't this guy in charge of the U.K.? ...

Because we don't have a Presidential system of government, we have a Parliamentary Democracy which means one person doesn't 'run the show'.

In America, he would be running the show. ...

Well for sure but then you like to have stupider people than you running things. I presume because it makes you feel cleverer or that being stupid is no hindrance in America.

Corbyn and May just..... they are deeply uncharismatic, and I'm increasingly certain Corbyn was wheeled out of a elder care home somewhere, and he doesn't quite know where he is. ...

Well he's definitely surprised at where he is but behind the scenes the Trots will be making sure the Labour Party is ready for a lurch to the far-left if they get voted in, which I doubt.

I also completely lack a understanding of how a shadow cabinet works. ...

As the largest opposition party to be voted into parliament they shadow their counterparts in the govt of the day and examine the policies and proposals and raise objections and oppose things they disagree with but mainly they play the game of waiting in case they win the next election and are in charge.

Is this like the deep state in America, but the U.K. just gave in and said from now on, we will always have a deep state cause it is so much fun to have? ...

No idea what a deep state is?

And before someone makes this into a situation about Trump or Anti-Americanism, at least the US never had a president who stuck their penis inside the head of a decapitated pig. ...

Well what can you do with the aristocracy eh!

No way are you somehow better than us, except in the realm of pig carcass molestation. ...

It's only Yanks who appear obsessed with us being better than you as we, in the main, don't even think about you. I presume some sort of insecurity complex.

This thread is for explaining to Americans why your politics is so backwards, how it works.

Isn't this a bit like 'when did you stop beating your wife?'. The main difference is that we, unlike America, didn't adopt the French model.

1) Why isn't Nigel Farage running the show? ...

See above.

2) What the heck is a shadow government, and why aren't they locked up in the Tower of London for treason?

See above and that we don't lock-up our elected representatives.

3) What's with the flower pot hats the women wear on dress up day?

No idea what you are talking about? You been watching to much Disney?

4) Why isn't Guy Fawkes a national hero?

Because he was a catholic who tried to blow up parliament and kill the king.

5) Are knighthoods by King Francis II recognized by your heraldic offices?

Probably but it won't be by these 'heraldic offices' I guess.

6) Can the Queen declare herself a pagan, ...

She could but she'd have to not be the Queen anymore.

sacrifice a virgin in Canterbury Cathedral to Marduk (the Protestant Canterbury, not the catholic one) and get away with it scot free, at least the first time around? ...

No, as she would be stripped of the Crown and tried for murder.

7) Can Scotland declare itself a republic and remain a part of the U.K.?

Doubt it but since we work on precedent I'm sure we'd muddle some solution. But would we want them?

Do the border laws from the era of wars between Scotland and England still have any legal force in law?

In what sense?

9) Can the Queen pawn the Crown Jewels for new properties outside of the jurisdiction of the U.K. by her own authority?

I think so as she owns them but then she'd have nothing to pass down and we'd probably decide to become a republic.

10) Why isn't Nigel Farage President of England?

Because there's no such role.

11) Why hasn't anyone called bullshit on the concept of a unwritten constitution?

Because it's been working so far and we see what having one does in other countries, makes lawyers rich for a start.

12) Why not just conquer the Principality of Sealand?

Because unlike the Yank we've pretty much given-up invading other countries. That and that we like eccentricity.

13) Why do you guys kid yourselves with the idea that Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland, heck.... even London is a ipcountry, instead of just staying they are a province or state? They didn't come into the union freely, they got dragged in and tramp stamped by former kings. England clearly owns them, and I know London was feral land for a while in the Middle Ages, and was depopulated only later.... it sure the fuck isn't it's own country if other aspects of England stretching back to King Alfred preexists it, and can't be their own country as well. ...

Wales hasn't been a principality since the C16th I think? Scotland is not a country by international law but shush don't tell the Scots that. England is also not a country by that metric, none of them are as the Sovereign State here is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and the nationality is British. Now of course the way you identify someone who is truly British is that they never say they are to each other but say which country they were born-in and only say they are British when talking to a Johnny foreigner who doesn't understand the UK.

That's bullshit, someone tell London to shut up and just be a city.

Are you mental!?

14) Haggis from the U.K. Is illegal here, how can you subject people to that, don't you have health and safety laws? You can't own a gun, but you can have a haggis? That doesn't sound reasonable at all.

What you got against the Scots?
That haggis is illegal and guns aren't.
Oh! And you can own a gun in the UK, you just can't buy it with your haggis.

15) Why is Tea Time mandatory at set times, ...

Something to do with the Empire and the aristocracy I'd guess but pretty much you're living in Disney's 1950's.

and why do the English (only country in the world to think so) think Oreo cookies threaten the stupid tea culture, ...

We don't. We just think that like your chocolate they taste like shit.

and what the fuck is a Jammie dodger? ...

Two rounds of butter shortbread sandwiching a strawberry/raspberry flavored jam filling. Or it could be a 'jammy dodger' which is an extension of someone being 'jammy', i.e. lucky and a 'jammy dodger' a very lucky fucker.

Just dunk the Oreos in milk and shut up, everyone else on the planet does, even lactose intolerant nations do this.

Behave, milk is for children.

I got more, lots more questions. ...

Fire away.

You can go start a America thread, ...

We really won't be bothering I think.

but this one is about the U.K. only, and the foreign exasperation of it's bizarre ways, explaining how the society and government works. Get as philosophical as you can. I want to see a grand theory for the silliness. ...

It's the language I think, you'd not understand that as like they say 'two countries separated by a common language'. It's also the weather, being an island and a long and varied history.

I really don't get what the heck is going on there, and need it explained to me. Some things you only grasp when you live in the country, and don't think the U.K. understands how weird it is. We need some explanations. By we, I mean everyone not from the Isles. Weird place.

You don't have to be weird to live here but...

Ah shit, the quote stack. I kinda asked for it, given my list of questions. I won't respond with one myself, but spotted a few replies (will read more later) I'll respond to.

1) Shadow Cabinet makes more sense now, sounded sinister as fuck when I first started hearing about it under the previous prime minister. It sounds like treason for our system almost. A lot of people even in the US don't know we maintained a parliamentary system until the Federalist and Anti-Federalists debated our current constitution, it too was a weak parliamenty supremacy system of government, instead of three separate and coequal branches of government. I need to also point out the President, Supreme Court, and Congress isn't equal, they certainly are not, just the powers of the branches are presumed to be. For example, a special council investigating a president or the members of the executive branch is a part of the executive, just not under the power of the president. The Supreme Court can't force the commander in chief to do anything in regards to the military, and even when precedent, a common law concept is asserted, from a misunderstanding of it's limited power, a future president can shrug off the precedent just like the courts sometimes themselves do, such as supreme courts disregarding previous Supreme Court decisions. The powers for each is innumerated in the constitution, with a general expectation that the presidency will gobble up additional "powers" faster, we left it up to George Washington to figure out exactly how the executive power handles issues, and when it comes to unique situations, a administration is expected to come up with novel solutions. Congress of course can and is expected to come up with novel solutions as well, as a legislator, and the rules of congress, via laws outweigh anything a president says ad hoc. Supreme Court rules on the basis of precedent and constitutional law, constitution first, then law by congress, then precedents regarding executive actions. Treaties are considered law, but not constitutional law, and a successful revolution is considered on par with constitutional law..... but you gotta conquer us all and rule by force before any judges still in the new system will accept it. We also have lesser classes of laws for tribes and autonomous communities, and traditions, but civil law within a fully established state of the union will rarely bow to this, save when it is on a reservation, which isn't usually considered part of a state.

A deep state is when you have a cabal hidden throughout government disregarding these checks and balances, by whatever means, pushing their own agenda, and it isn't obvious to the people at all who is doing this. George Soros by himself wouldn't be a deep state, or his advocacy or funding of synthetic movements, but people secretly aligned and pushing agendas are. It can take a variety of forms, isn't exclusive to any given belief system, other than they feel entitled to do this. They can use the powers of their position (such as the Hawaiian judge to constantly stop Trump, even though congress clearly has to powers to restrict alien access anyway it chooses, and delegated it to the president.... and the Supreme Court has in the past repeatedly asserted it has no powers). Alone, the judge wouldn't be a deepstate, as a lone actor, but as a group, it can have a traumatic effect on a legally elected administration. It takes a lot of effort and resources to track these groups down and flush them out. Right now, the Russian investigation has turned 180 degrees and focuses much more on Hillary and the democrats given their corruption and law breaking in the last election (up to and including murder). A lot of deepstate interference is occurring, some people have already been rooted out and identified, soon to face prosecution, given they did stuff strictly forbidden.

I'm presuming England just said fuck it and made the deep state open and mandatory. Kinda like the laws of Kanly from Dune, legal assassination. Just take a fucked up system, mold it till it works pragmatically. A parliamentary government can completely collapse overnight on a mere political whim of the population, or a vote of no confidence, so I guess having a separate government already set to go, always makes sense.

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:1) Shadow Cabinet makes more sense now, sounded sinister as fuck when I first started hearing about it under the previous prime minister. It sounds like treason for our system almost. A lot of people even in the US don't know ...

And a lot of people don't care, me included.

A deep state is when you have a cabal hidden throughout government disregarding these checks and balances, by whatever means, pushing their own agenda, and it isn't obvious to the people at all who is doing this. George Soros by himself wouldn't be a deep state, or his advocacy or funding of synthetic movements, but people secretly aligned and pushing agendas are. It can take a variety of forms, isn't exclusive to any given belief system, other than they feel entitled to do this. They can use the powers of their position (such as the Hawaiian judge to constantly stop Trump, even though congress clearly has to powers to restrict alien access anyway it chooses, and delegated it to the president.... and the Supreme Court has in the past repeatedly asserted it has no powers). Alone, the judge wouldn't be a deepstate, as a lone actor, but as a group, it can have a traumatic effect on a legally elected administration. It takes a lot of effort and resources to track these groups down and flush them out. Right now, the Russian investigation has turned 180 degrees and focuses much more on Hillary and the democrats given their corruption and law breaking in the last election (up to and including murder). A lot of deepstate interference is occurring, some people have already been rooted out and identified, soon to face prosecution, given they did stuff strictly forbidden. ...

Just sounds like Yank 'big gubberment' paranoia and Trump twatting to me. But maybe it is a just reflection of the political system you run given that it's all special interests apparently and is not a direct democracy as I've heard you have two sets of laws in your country.

I'm presuming England just said fuck it and made the deep state open and mandatory. Kinda like the laws of Kanly from Dune, legal assassination. ...

No it didn't. Much as I love sci-fi I think it should stay in the world of fiction.

Just take a fucked up system, mold it till it works pragmatically. A parliamentary government can completely collapse overnight on a mere political whim of the population, ...

No it can't or no more than any government can fail upon the will of its population.

or a vote of no confidence, ...

These only happen when the govt in power is a minority government and all it does is trigger a general election.

so I guess having a separate government already set to go, always makes sense.

It's not a separate government ready to go as there has to be a general election and they may not win it. The 'shadow' whatever is just a term for the possible ministerial counter-part of the largest opposition party if they got elected, they have no power other than being spokespeople for their party upon the relevant matter but all they are are MP's like all the others including the Prime Minister.