artisticsolution wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:08 pmWell, I think veggie sums it up pretty well here:
This, she did not do. Besides the fact that I never even used the word 'muslim', but was referring to Islam as an ideology - it's clear what she was trying to do. She's trying to make an equivocation between anyone who might have a concern over the tenets of Islam, and a racial bias we all agree is based on actual ignorance. So pretty much one of the stereotypical arguments used by the more progressive liberals at an attempt to discourage any real discussion, by attributing ill intentions to the very mentality that's trying to sift through the actual ill intentions.
(i.e. the influence of others irrational prejudice be it my country's leaders or my neighbor, family, etc.)
I think it's pretty irrational to be so inclined call it an irrational prejudice, when we're talking about something like a religion. I was always under the impression that's it's okay to dislike others if it's something tangible like what they're doing, or you disagree with them on something morally critical. Doesn't religion determine things like that, and so much more?
I'm sure that there are people who genuinely have a hatred of Arabic people, and interchangeably consider them 'muslim', and all that without really knowing how to differentiate between a race and religion - and then there are just racists in general - so if we're talking about something like that, I would agree that is an irrational prejudice. The problem is, you're partially guilty of this mentality that makes racism so toxic, because you've made a thread about "mexicans/muslims" failing to separate them accordingly. One of them is a race, the other is a religion.
Here's the thing, Sir sister...when I think of the 'wrongness' or 'rightness' of a situation, the only way I have of clearing the clutter (i.e. the influence of others irrational prejudice be it my country's leaders or my neighbor, family, etc.) is to imagine a world where I am the person in the other situation and what reasons I might have for "breaking the law" and even going farther and thinking if that law was fair and just.
I think if we tried to live by a principle of
absolute empathy in the way that you suggest, a lot of things would be different in our lives. There needs to be a counter balance in practically thinking about the negative consequences. I have no problem saying that a countries first priority should be its citizens over the people outside of it, but I think it's also about maintaining the country that leads to so many people wanting to immigrate. Putting different cultures aside, are you convinced that there aren't any negatives to letting more immigrants in?
If anyone here, tells me that they think children, who have been born in the US by illegal immigrants or brought here by II, should be deported, I would say that is simply wrong. For the obvious reasons that it is cruel to send someone to another country that has never known the language or culture and to plop them down defenseless! Now, I dare you to imagine a country that did that to your own children and tell me if you would think it was right?
I don't know exactly where I would draw the line. I'm inclined to agree with you on the current state of the law which an immigrant's children become legal citizens, but ironically I think it's also a very large portion of the issue in immigration - it's exponential population growth because immigrates tend to have more children.
In no circumstances is that right. If you believe it is then you are perverse and with out hope.
I think much of this mentality is from putting too much weight and fault on america, rather than the hell-hold country they're being sent back to. I mean, you mention the language thing, which is a fine point and pretty unavoidable. But there are some people who try to make this argument that America is in the wrong for aiming to deport many of these people back to their horrible countries, and I think that's just an thinly-veiled attempt to reflect where the moral responsibility actually lies - which is their hell-hold countries. It's not our fault that many mexican deportees will end up being sent to violent Mexican cities, to possibly face an even harsh persecution. That moral onus is on the mexican government that isn't doing anything about their living conditions. Why should we be the ones to blame for that, when we're not even doing the thing we're being blamed for?
Now, as for illegal immigrant who came here as adults. The wrongness of their action does not mean a country should go into debt and ruin it's economy just to punish some of breaking some law made by society. There is a higher order than man's self serving interests. This world belongs to all of us. That is the "right" way things should be.
I'm under the opposite impression. I think illegal immigration is more detrimental to the economy, especially since companies actually have a personal incentive to hire them, as it stands right now.
Well, I just don't blankly think illegal immigration is a problem because it's against the law, I think it's against the law for its problems.
John Boenher once said that if we "do the right thing, the right thing will happen." Too bad he didn't understand what the "right thing" was. The right thing ALWAYS benefits mankind. The right thing is humane. If there is any doubt, let that ALWAYS be the starting point. So if we say, "it is not right" that immigrants have been here for decades and established lives here while we said nothing and did nothing, only to decades later get stirred into a frenzy by their presence, and to want retribution so badly we are willing to devastate financially not only ourselves but an entire group of people seeking a better life, then we can clearly see our 'wrongness'.
I would consider myself an utilitarian on the topic of morality, so I can definitely relate to what you're saying, my utilitarianism just isn't as 1-dimensional as the early philosophers were. My position on illegal immigration ultimately is about whats best for humanity. I think letting our society degrade to the state of what many of these people are fleeing from, for the sake of what seems to be the most immediate way to help people, is something to consider.
Veggie is right about one thing...American's are spoiled. We don't think there is a place on Earth that is not rightfully ours.
I've noticed the people on this forum have a way of generalizing 'Americans', that people would more than likely be quick to call racist or xenophobic if it was said about most other groups of people or cultures from a different nation. "The Swedes are spoiled"; "The Germans just think everything belongs to them"; It would be one thing if we were talking about just their governments, and not the people residing inside them, but it doesn't seem we are. I don't know, it's just a thought I've had.
