Philosophy Now Forum

So much is going on in the world. Big countries such as China, Russia and India. Small countries like Bhutan and Nepal and Somalia. Yet many threads here are devoted, directly and indirectly, to the US (even more than to the UK and this is a British website). Why?

My answer is the US is a leading, maybe the leading country in this world. The US has many things going for it. Been around for over 200 years and I expect for many years. Survived many problems and will continue to do so

PhilX

Apart from bobeveson, yourself and VT pretty much no-one posts about the US and in general it's normally an American who does so?

I found that Australia gets more than its proportional share of mention, too. According to land mass, population size, Gross National Output, leading scientific discoveries, and average number of litres per hard liquor per household consumed on an annual basis.

Nobody talks about Hungary. Hungary, Hungary, Hungary!!!! yey, whoomstock riblikante, yey, brothers! Wake up and smell Hungary.

Well, for starters, America is interesting, and vibrant and growing. The English are in a generational stance of continued decay, religion has died, real difference of opinion has died.... took everything just to get the Brexit moving.... British Empire died, the Union is always on the verge of disintergrating in the U.K., great ethical questions have totally died off (how serious is for example, a debate on abortion or guns in the U.K..... not very, the debate died two generations ago, people just sit idle and accept the continued downhill slide into oblivion, reassuring themselves as they are flushed down the toilet of history that at least they aren't like those wild Yanks).

China would be a bastion for philosophy too, if it wasn't for the censorship and strong push for conformity and non-political discourse on social media. Nobody understands French, and any philosophy going on in the Francophone world is isolated to it. India has a lot of philosophy going on, oftwn quite complex, but the root stems from guys like Vivekananda or early Indic philosophers, or questions the west outside the US rarely struggles with now, like Communalism/Marxism vs Capitalism, place of Caste, etc. I've met some decent Indian philosophers however, just never on a forum.

Americans have a long tradition of putting our wares out for everyone to see, foreigners sorta understand how constitutionalism and presidential republicanism works, despite most being from parliamentary systems.... our debates tend to set the theme for world debates. They can gain ideas from us, but it is extremely difficult to port parliamentary ideas, especially from backwards areas like Western Europe, to a full blown republic with a separation of powers. We also have a free system of speech (unlike the U.K., you can get into trouble for saying the wrong thing) closely attached to our conception of political discourse. We sorta have a insistence of inserting not just ideology but also your sense of self into politics.

Australians modeled a lot of their early ideas off the US. Not too surprising they are outspoken. New Zealand didn't, and are quite little Kiwis. Australia also isn't dying off like the concept of the U.K. is, they likely will outlive them long after ISIS re establishes it's caliphate in the isles.

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:... after ISIS re establishes it's caliphate in the isles.

Re-establishes? Given we are less than 5% Muslim over here why do you think that is going to happen.

Well, given that you are quickly losing control over your cities, a intellectually destabilizing wave of irreligion throughout the country, as well as a general collapse of unity of people and nation, you are well ripe for mass political conversions, and when these happen, it happens suddenly. History shows us this, it took Christianity centuries to become the chief religion of the Roman Empire for example, but centuries after it's foundation, pagans could still hold to statistical claims that Christians are a small minority. The actual rise came rather quick, in conjunction with the general disbelief in the old pagan pantheon.... Christianity wasn't the only religion that exploited it's decline, many new religions did too.

Hawaii likewise mass converted rather quick, after a civil war that destroyed the fabric of religious and political unity. So did Russia, communists had been a extreme minority, anarchist at times seemed their equal.

The English are rapidly becoming minorities in city after city. Birmingham is the next to fall, if it hasn't already, and the trend will continue for quite some time. Not all are Muslim, but at the same time, there isn't exactly much being offered in terms of a national or societal spirit to unify the people behind something as adversity and hard times strike.... and it is inevitable, hard times will strike.

I can go into many more cases of countries shifting religions and national character, resulting in civil war. China is chalk full of them. Statistics are a poor foundation of faith, especially when you choose to misstate them like you did. Islam is a far higher portion of your population, many statistics set it equal with Catholicism in the U.K. UK is pulling out of the EU, so this will likely shunt the inflow of Catholics, but won't begin to stop Muslims from moving in.

This being said, some decent Muslim philosophers exist. I think that post-atheist England will produce some decent imams, exploring traditional English philosophers someday, much as Christians explore Greek and Roman pagan works. Perhaps a synthesis of the old (the current system) and the new can exist. Given many of the works of English philosophers exist in the west, like Canada and the US, the lost of your libraries in the upcoming wars won't be as traumatic as losing say, the Library of Alexandria.

These isn't a way around it, your country is screwed. The Greeks had been a society that embraced cosmopolitan thinking (Minus the Spartans) and increased alliances, that lead to the creation of ever larger states, new colonies, expansion of population. They became a net exporter of ideas, technology, religion. Today, the British mentality is the absolute opposite of this. They are the bottom feeders of the west, and when people look to see what is in the future of the U.K., they look at people jumping fences outside of Calais. In the US and China, we look at the Moon and Mars. That's the big, big difference.

Now I know, you will go off on a tangent saying "Not true, I'm so British, and you don't understand X, Y, Z....." but know none of that matters. You are losing your main emporiums to other people. Your national ideals are crumbling, religious life fading, beliefs dying off. Nothing really binds you except a idea of shared security and commonwealth, and both are increasingly shaken with alternatives.... independent Scotland, united Ireland, free nation of London. Abortions, assisted suicides, transsexualism, pacifism in the face of encroaching as well as clear and present danger.

What percentage of the Roman Empire was of Catheginian descent when Hannibal was making his way across Gaul, with eyes on the Alps? Probably higher than 5%, given the unity between colonization and trade within the mindset of the Phonecians, and the headstart they had over Rome in the region with centuries of trade. How well do you think the Roman Senate would of taken that 5% claim as evidence that everything is going all right? I tell you what, had any done that, they would of been buried alive after Hannibal emerged from the Alps.

That is The English conundrum. World is watching it in a slow motion collapse, and everyone inside is so damn sure they are smart, savvy, have it all figured out, when it is all busting from the seams, going to hell. Do I need to mention the acid attacks craze? Homeless on the rise? Poor shoved into towers that light up on the first fire, burning everyone alive? How you manage to produce next to no political capital, you have Corbin and May.... neither have it in them to identify the problems, much less confront and more to solve them.

US is able of still producing a endless array of thinkers, of politicians. We've shown considerable progress, the liberals are dying off, while new parties and movements are gaining strength and expanding. Our economy is starting this year to boom in formerly dead liberal areas, once the people threw down the shackles of thought control and tyranny. We remain a country, while the U.K. Balkanizes, flees anything resembling a commitment to a larger unity and whole. The Dream of England has finally died. In it's place is a few grumpy old liberals who thinks everything is okay while the world burns around them. Truely admirable how the British face death, but it isn't for the US, for we choose to keep on striving, to renew ourselves, to keep on living.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:42 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:... after ISIS re establishes it's caliphate in the isles.

Re-establishes? Given we are less than 5% Muslim over here why do you think that is going to happen.

That's a bit misleading. It's more than 5 percent now, with nearly ten percent of children under five being muslim. And that's overall. Some cities are a third muslim and some London boroughs nearly 50 percent--although it's difficult to get up-to-date figures because the number is increasing so fast. I'm assuming you live in an area with a very high muslim population. It's nice to see that England is a haven for the people it has displaced with its fun and games in the ME and love-fest with the US. With the rate of increase I look forward to muslims making up at least a third of the population of England in ten years, although morally it should be far more of course--at least 50 percent would be only fair. I'm looking forward to your next royal wedding, the one between Prince Engelbert Enlandink and Princess Sharia of the United States of Burka and Niqaab.

All fair points VT but so what? The bulk identify themselves as British when asked and who knows maybe we'll be the nation that introduces the Islamic reformation. As to your idea that 33% will be Muslim in ten years, the trend seems to be about 10% by the middle of the century if we cut immigration which with Brexit seems to be heavily on the cards. One of the main issues is the high levels of unemployment in their communities which I think can lead to extremism, idle hands and all that. Of course if all of what you and others say comes to pass then at least the men over here will be back in the driving seat and you should be happy as PC, feminism, etc might well be on the back foot too. Plus we'll stop pissing about in the ME.
p.s.
One fascinating fact appears to be that of the 100,000 new converts to Islam 60% odd were women.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:25 pm All fair points VT but so what? The bulk identify themselves as British when asked and who knows maybe we'll be the nation that introduces the Islamic reformation. As to your idea that 33% will be Muslim in ten years, the trend seems to be about 10% by the middle of the century if we cut immigration which with Brexit seems to be heavily on the cards. One of the main issues is the high levels of unemployment in their communities which I think can lead to extremism, idle hands and all that. Of course if all of what you and others say comes to pass then at least the men over here will be back in the driving seat and you should be happy as PC, feminism, etc might well be on the back foot too. Plus we'll stop pissing about in the ME.
p.s.
One fascinating fact appears to be that of the 100,000 new converts to Islam 60% odd were women.

You English are a very peculiar lot. You don't even seem to mind when you get blown to pieces

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You English are a very peculiar lot. You don't even seem to mind when you get blown to pieces

We got used to it when the Yanks were funding Irish terrorism.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:43 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You English are a very peculiar lot. You don't even seem to mind when you get blown to pieces

We got used to it when the Yanks were funding Irish terrorism.

You pride yourselves on your love and tolerance towards muslims in your country, yet celebrate and hero-worhip your military goons who are blowing muslims up in their own countries. Peculiar indeed

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You pride yourselves on your love and tolerance towards muslims in your country, yet celebrate and hero-worhip your military goons who are blowing muslims up in their own countries. Peculiar indeed

I don't pride myself on either of those things. I do have a slight pride in the attitude of tolerant bigotry that the UK used to have but that's going out the window now I think so back to the 70's 'ere we go!

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:Well, given that you are quickly losing control over your cities, a intellectually destabilizing wave of irreligion throughout the country, as well as a general collapse of unity of people and nation, you are well ripe for mass political conversions, and when these happen, it happens suddenly. ...

For sure and it's generally the fascists and far-right who benefit as they sell stupidity to the masses, take Trump in your country.

Irreligion? I thought you said we're going to be Islamic in the near future.

History shows us this, it took Christianity centuries to become the chief religion of the Roman Empire for example, but centuries after it's foundation, pagans could still hold to statistical claims that Christians are a small minority. The actual rise came rather quick, in conjunction with the general disbelief in the old pagan pantheon.... Christianity wasn't the only religion that exploited it's decline, many new religions did too. ...

Rome did quite well after that didn't it so are you saying this will be a renewal for us?

The English are rapidly becoming minorities in city after city. Birmingham is the next to fall, if it hasn't already, and the trend will continue for quite some time.

Not all are Muslim, but at the same time, there isn't exactly much being offered in terms of a national or societal spirit to unify the people behind something as adversity and hard times strike.... and it is inevitable, hard times will strike. ...

I agree and with Brexit they are going to be striking pretty soon. For me the solution is the idea of Citizenship so that plurality can replace this abomination of an American import "multiculturalism".

I can go into many more cases of countries shifting religions and national character, resulting in civil war. China is chalk full of them. Statistics are a poor foundation of faith, especially when you choose to misstate them like you did. Islam is a far higher portion of your population, many statistics set it equal with Catholicism in the U.K. UK is pulling out of the EU, so this will likely shunt the inflow of Catholics, but won't begin to stop Muslims from moving in. ...

I haven't misstated them they are the facts.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 76526.html

No idea why you are talking about Catholicism as unless you've been living in America we had something called the Church of England a while back. So no, Islam isn't a far higher proportion of our population as a fair chunk of our population aren't godbotherers at all nowadays but it might well be the second biggest but that's not saying much.

This being said, some decent Muslim philosophers exist. I think that post-atheist England will produce some decent imams, exploring traditional English philosophers someday, much as Christians explore Greek and Roman pagan works. Perhaps a synthesis of the old (the current system) and the new can exist. Given many of the works of English philosophers exist in the west, like Canada and the US, the lost of your libraries in the upcoming wars won't be as traumatic as losing say, the Library of Alexandria. ...

You Yanks love your end of times don't you.

These isn't a way around it, your country is screwed. ...

There's loads of ways around it, it depends if people act.

The Greeks had been a society that embraced cosmopolitan thinking (Minus the Spartans) and increased alliances, that lead to the creation of ever larger states, new colonies, expansion of population. They became a net exporter of ideas, technology, religion. Today, the British mentality is the absolute opposite of this. They are the bottom feeders of the west, and when people look to see what is in the future of the U.K., they look at people jumping fences outside of Calais. In the US and China, we look at the Moon and Mars. That's the big, big difference. ...

You forgot India but I doubt America will be going anywhere in the near future as you're currently dismantling the machinery of government and abandoning the idea of reason and truth. If Trump loses the next election then there will be a serious split in your nation and given the amount of guns in the hands of the loons you'll be having your civil war long before us.

Now I know, you will go off on a tangent saying "Not true, I'm so British, and you don't understand X, Y, Z....." but know none of that matters. ...

You seem to know a lot about what I think?

You are losing your main emporiums to other people. ...

We lost the Empire long-ago and sold out our technology to the Yank and Jap recently so I can't disagree with you there.

Your national ideals are crumbling, religious life fading, beliefs dying off. Nothing really binds you except a idea of shared security and commonwealth, and both are increasingly shaken with alternatives.... independent Scotland, united Ireland, free nation of London. ...

Free nation of London

I agree that there is an issue of what it is to be British today and even more what it is to be English but these things can be addressed with the revival of the idea of Citizenship and and fairer share of the pie than what is currently on offer. That and that we should be encouraging breeding more by tax breaks and free-child care. Our big mistake has been to follow the Yank down the neo-liberal path and adopt the contradiction that is "multiculturalism".

Abortions, assisted suicides, transsexualism, pacifism in the face of encroaching as well as clear and present danger.

There are no assisted suicides here and this is laughable from the Yank when your guns enable more suicides than any govt policy possible.

What is this 'clear and present danger'( how Yank) you talk about, you mean the hundred thousand Russian troops maneuvering on Europe's borders? If so I agree as given your President is no fan of NATO and a big fan of Putin I think the Europeans are sleep-walking their way into trouble.

What percentage of the Roman Empire was of Catheginian descent when Hannibal was making his way across Gaul, with eyes on the Alps? Probably higher than 5%, given the unity between colonization and trade within the mindset of the Phonecians, and the headstart they had over Rome in the region with centuries of trade. How well do you think the Roman Senate would of taken that 5% claim as evidence that everything is going all right? I tell you what, had any done that, they would of been buried alive after Hannibal emerged from the Alps. ...

Is there an Ottoman Empire around anywhere? There might well be one day but then that'll be due to the Yank supporting the Saudi's which has become a true tiger and the tail scenario as if they were deposed now the place would explode into our your worst nightmare.

That is The English conundrum. World is watching it in a slow motion collapse, and everyone inside is so damn sure they are smart, savvy, have it all figured out, when it is all busting from the seams, going to hell. ...

Except we appear to be more pessimistic then we should be?

The 'English conundrum' is what to do after you've been the largest Empire in the world.

Do I need to mention the acid attacks craze? ...

You just have?

Homeless on the rise? ...

Has been ever since we adopted the Yank neo-liberal approach to things.

Poor shoved into towers that light up on the first fire, burning everyone alive?

Not quite, those towers were built back in the 60's and they were very fireproof. The problem is the law of unintended consequences as the councils tried to address the issues of unsocial behaviour and low esteem in those blocks by tarting them up with pretty cladding, and it worked by and large, but as usual they cut corners hence the catastrophe. I definitely find it a bit rich a Yank lecturing me on the homeless and how we treat them.

How you manage to produce next to no political capital, you have Corbin and May.... neither have it in them to identify the problems, much less confront and more to solve them. ...

I agree although it is an irony that Corbin has a chance to get elected as the young have been under the neo-liberal capitalist message for so long that they think him a breath of fresh air.

US is able of still producing a endless array of thinkers, of politicians. We've shown considerable progress, the liberals are dying off, while new parties and movements are gaining strength and expanding. ...

Seems to be the alt-right so far and they are just trotting-out tired old ideas?

Our economy is starting this year to boom in formerly dead liberal areas, once the people threw down the shackles of thought control and tyranny. ...

That's good, which areas?

We remain a country, while the U.K. Balkanizes, flees anything resembling a commitment to a larger unity and whole. ...

But you've never really been a country? You're a loose association of states who appear to chafe under the idea of a federal whole and your people are only held together by the pursuit of the almighty dollar and always having to create an external enemy.

The Dream of England has finally died. ...

I think you mean the dream of Britain.

In it's place is a few grumpy old liberals who thinks everything is okay while the world burns around them. ...

I agree, although not so dramatically.

Truely admirable how the British face death, but it isn't for the US, for we choose to keep on striving, to renew ourselves, to keep on living.

Come back and tell me about it in a thousand odd years.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:20 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:Well, given that you are quickly losing control over your cities, a intellectually destabilizing wave of irreligion throughout the country, as well as a general collapse of unity of people and nation, you are well ripe for mass political conversions, and when these happen, it happens suddenly. ...

For sure and it's generally the fascists and far-right who benefit as they sell stupidity to the masses, take Trump in your country.

Irreligion? I thought you said we're going to be Islamic in the near future.

History shows us this, it took Christianity centuries to become the chief religion of the Roman Empire for example, but centuries after it's foundation, pagans could still hold to statistical claims that Christians are a small minority. The actual rise came rather quick, in conjunction with the general disbelief in the old pagan pantheon.... Christianity wasn't the only religion that exploited it's decline, many new religions did too. ...

Rome did quite well after that didn't it so are you saying this will be a renewal for us?

The English are rapidly becoming minorities in city after city. Birmingham is the next to fall, if it hasn't already, and the trend will continue for quite some time.

Not all are Muslim, but at the same time, there isn't exactly much being offered in terms of a national or societal spirit to unify the people behind something as adversity and hard times strike.... and it is inevitable, hard times will strike. ...

I agree and with Brexit they are going to be striking pretty soon. For me the solution is the idea of Citizenship so that plurality can replace this abomination of an American import "multiculturalism".

I can go into many more cases of countries shifting religions and national character, resulting in civil war. China is chalk full of them. Statistics are a poor foundation of faith, especially when you choose to misstate them like you did. Islam is a far higher portion of your population, many statistics set it equal with Catholicism in the U.K. UK is pulling out of the EU, so this will likely shunt the inflow of Catholics, but won't begin to stop Muslims from moving in. ...

I haven't misstated them they are the facts.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 76526.html

No idea why you are talking about Catholicism as unless you've been living in America we had something called the Church of England a while back. So no, Islam isn't a far higher proportion of our population as a fair chunk of our population aren't godbotherers at all nowadays but it might well be the second biggest but that's not saying much.

This being said, some decent Muslim philosophers exist. I think that post-atheist England will produce some decent imams, exploring traditional English philosophers someday, much as Christians explore Greek and Roman pagan works. Perhaps a synthesis of the old (the current system) and the new can exist. Given many of the works of English philosophers exist in the west, like Canada and the US, the lost of your libraries in the upcoming wars won't be as traumatic as losing say, the Library of Alexandria. ...

You Yanks love your end of times don't you.

These isn't a way around it, your country is screwed. ...

There's loads of ways around it, it depends if people act.

The Greeks had been a society that embraced cosmopolitan thinking (Minus the Spartans) and increased alliances, that lead to the creation of ever larger states, new colonies, expansion of population. They became a net exporter of ideas, technology, religion. Today, the British mentality is the absolute opposite of this. They are the bottom feeders of the west, and when people look to see what is in the future of the U.K., they look at people jumping fences outside of Calais. In the US and China, we look at the Moon and Mars. That's the big, big difference. ...

You forgot India but I doubt America will be going anywhere in the near future as you're currently dismantling the machinery of government and abandoning the idea of reason and truth. If Trump loses the next election then there will be a serious split in your nation and given the amount of guns in the hands of the loons you'll be having your civil war long before us.

Now I know, you will go off on a tangent saying "Not true, I'm so British, and you don't understand X, Y, Z....." but know none of that matters. ...

You seem to know a lot about what I think?

You are losing your main emporiums to other people. ...

We lost the Empire long-ago and sold out our technology to the Yank and Jap recently so I can't disagree with you there.

Your national ideals are crumbling, religious life fading, beliefs dying off. Nothing really binds you except a idea of shared security and commonwealth, and both are increasingly shaken with alternatives.... independent Scotland, united Ireland, free nation of London. ...

Free nation of London

I agree that there is an issue of what it is to be British today and even more what it is to be English but these things can be addressed with the revival of the idea of Citizenship and and fairer share of the pie than what is currently on offer. That and that we should be encouraging breeding more by tax breaks and free-child care. Our big mistake has been to follow the Yank down the neo-liberal path and adopt the contradiction that is "multiculturalism".

Abortions, assisted suicides, transsexualism, pacifism in the face of encroaching as well as clear and present danger.

There are no assisted suicides here and this is laughable from the Yank when your guns enable more suicides than any govt policy possible.

What is this 'clear and present danger'( how Yank) you talk about, you mean the hundred thousand Russian troops maneuvering on Europe's borders? If so I agree as given your President is no fan of NATO and a big fan of Putin I think the Europeans are sleep-walking their way into trouble.

What percentage of the Roman Empire was of Catheginian descent when Hannibal was making his way across Gaul, with eyes on the Alps? Probably higher than 5%, given the unity between colonization and trade within the mindset of the Phonecians, and the headstart they had over Rome in the region with centuries of trade. How well do you think the Roman Senate would of taken that 5% claim as evidence that everything is going all right? I tell you what, had any done that, they would of been buried alive after Hannibal emerged from the Alps. ...

Is there an Ottoman Empire around anywhere? There might well be one day but then that'll be due to the Yank supporting the Saudi's which has become a true tiger and the tail scenario as if they were deposed now the place would explode into our your worst nightmare.

That is The English conundrum. World is watching it in a slow motion collapse, and everyone inside is so damn sure they are smart, savvy, have it all figured out, when it is all busting from the seams, going to hell. ...

Except we appear to be more pessimistic then we should be?

The 'English conundrum' is what to do after you've been the largest Empire in the world.

Do I need to mention the acid attacks craze? ...

You just have?

Homeless on the rise? ...

Has been ever since we adopted the Yank neo-liberal approach to things.

Poor shoved into towers that light up on the first fire, burning everyone alive?

Not quite, those towers were built back in the 60's and they were very fireproof. The problem is the law of unintended consequences as the councils tried to address the issues of unsocial behaviour and low esteem in those blocks by tarting them up with pretty cladding, and it worked by and large, but as usual they cut corners hence the catastrophe. I definitely find it a bit rich a Yank lecturing me on the homeless and how we treat them.

How you manage to produce next to no political capital, you have Corbin and May.... neither have it in them to identify the problems, much less confront and more to solve them. ...

I agree although it is an irony that Corbin has a chance to get elected as the young have been under the neo-liberal capitalist message for so long that they think him a breath of fresh air.

US is able of still producing a endless array of thinkers, of politicians. We've shown considerable progress, the liberals are dying off, while new parties and movements are gaining strength and expanding. ...

Seems to be the alt-right so far and they are just trotting-out tired old ideas?

Our economy is starting this year to boom in formerly dead liberal areas, once the people threw down the shackles of thought control and tyranny. ...

That's good, which areas?

We remain a country, while the U.K. Balkanizes, flees anything resembling a commitment to a larger unity and whole. ...

But you've never really been a country? You're a loose association of states who appear to chafe under the idea of a federal whole and your people are only held together by the pursuit of the almighty dollar and always having to create an external enemy.

The Dream of England has finally died. ...

I think you mean the dream of Britain.

In it's place is a few grumpy old liberals who thinks everything is okay while the world burns around them. ...

I agree, although not so dramatically.

Truely admirable how the British face death, but it isn't for the US, for we choose to keep on striving, to renew ourselves, to keep on living.

Come back and tell me about it in a thousand odd years.

People call Trump 'right wing' but his (stated) views are actually pretty socialist.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:...
People call Trump 'right wing' but his (stated) views are actually pretty socialist.

Yup, national socialist but by and large I don't believe he has any real views or opinions on things political he just loves the celebrity.