Rediscovering Plato’s Vision
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:26 am
Mark Vernon sees Plato in an old light.
https://philosophynow.org/issues/122/Rediscovering_Platos_Vision
https://philosophynow.org/issues/122/Rediscovering_Platos_Vision
For the discussion of all things philosophical.
https://canzookia.com/
I’ve verified by experience that this is true. The modern intellectual trend is the glorification of specialization and fragmentation and comparing fragmentary knowledge or facts scientifically. Those like Plato inspire us to open our minds and hearts to the wholeness of the big picture through the experience of intuition.It’s a frustrating time to be a fan of Plato. Public intellectuals routinely misrepresent him, and it’s hard to find courses that can unveil the richness of insight and meaning which the best thinkers of twenty-three centuries, from Plotinus to Iris Murdoch, have discerned in his dialogues.
So Plato has become old fashioned and the depth and meaning of his contribution is now only recognized by a relative few who have not yet become disciples of fragmentation. Can collective human being survive this loss or are we doomed to destroy ourselves through technology and materialism as the necessary consequence of the loss of the quality of ideas offering the experience of awe and meaning those like Plato have introduced into the World?Our world, so we see and hear on all sides, is drowning in materialism, commercialism, consumerism. But the problem is not really there. What we ordinarily speak of as materialism is a result, not a cause. The root of materialism is a poverty of ideas about the inner and outer world. Less and less does our contemporary culture have, or even seek, commerce with great ideas, and it is the lack that is weakening the human spirit. This is the essence of materialism. Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas.
Throughout history ideas of a certain kind have been disseminated into the life of humanity in order to help human beings understand and feel the possibility of the deep inner change that would enable them to serve the purpose for which they were created, namely, to act in the world as conscious individual instruments of God, and the ultimate principle of reality and value. Ideas of this kind are formulated in order to have a specific range of action on the human psych: to touch the heart as well as the intellect; to shock us into questioning our present understanding; to point us to the greatness around us in nature and the universe, and the potential greatness slumbering within ourselves; to open our eyes to the real needs of our neighbor; to confront us with our own profound ignorance and our criminal fears and egoism; to show us that we are not here for ourselves alone, but as necessary particles of divine love.
These are the contours of the ancient wisdom, considered as ideas embodied in religious and philosophical doctrines, works of sacred art, literature and music and, in a very fundamental way, an indication of practical methods by which a man or woman can work, as is said, to become what he or she really is. Without feeling the full range of such ideas, or sensing even a modest, but pure, trace of them, we are bound to turn for meaning.
Part of the problem is Western Logic's inability to accept "the circle" as an inherent and unavoidable aspect of the reasoning process. A strict linear approach inevitably leads towards fractation and division. The line is strictly an absence of structure when taken in its own respect for it simply is spatial seperation.Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:23 amI’ve verified by experience that this is true. The modern intellectual trend is the glorification of specialization and fragmentation and comparing fragmentary knowledge or facts scientifically. Those like Plato inspire us to open our minds and hearts to the wholeness of the big picture through the experience of intuition.It’s a frustrating time to be a fan of Plato. Public intellectuals routinely misrepresent him, and it’s hard to find courses that can unveil the richness of insight and meaning which the best thinkers of twenty-three centuries, from Plotinus to Iris Murdoch, have discerned in his dialogues.
Where analysis is the use of conscious reasoning, Intuition is defined as the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning. Fragmentation pulls us down into details while intuition inspires us to the experience of a quality of wholeness that reconciles rather than analyses fragments. This raises the question of what is lost through the obsession with fragmentation and specialization. Jacob Needleman offers food for thought in his book: “The American Soul:”
So Plato has become old fashioned and the depth and meaning of his contribution is now only recognized by a relative few who have not yet become disciples of fragmentation. Can collective human being survive this loss or are we doomed to destroy ourselves through technology and materialism as the necessary consequence of the loss of the quality of ideas offering the experience of awe and meaning those like Plato have introduced into the World?Our world, so we see and hear on all sides, is drowning in materialism, commercialism, consumerism. But the problem is not really there. What we ordinarily speak of as materialism is a result, not a cause. The root of materialism is a poverty of ideas about the inner and outer world. Less and less does our contemporary culture have, or even seek, commerce with great ideas, and it is the lack that is weakening the human spirit. This is the essence of materialism. Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas.
Throughout history ideas of a certain kind have been disseminated into the life of humanity in order to help human beings understand and feel the possibility of the deep inner change that would enable them to serve the purpose for which they were created, namely, to act in the world as conscious individual instruments of God, and the ultimate principle of reality and value. Ideas of this kind are formulated in order to have a specific range of action on the human psych: to touch the heart as well as the intellect; to shock us into questioning our present understanding; to point us to the greatness around us in nature and the universe, and the potential greatness slumbering within ourselves; to open our eyes to the real needs of our neighbor; to confront us with our own profound ignorance and our criminal fears and egoism; to show us that we are not here for ourselves alone, but as necessary particles of divine love.
These are the contours of the ancient wisdom, considered as ideas embodied in religious and philosophical doctrines, works of sacred art, literature and music and, in a very fundamental way, an indication of practical methods by which a man or woman can work, as is said, to become what he or she really is. Without feeling the full range of such ideas, or sensing even a modest, but pure, trace of them, we are bound to turn for meaning.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:51 pm Eodnhoj7
You are obviously aware of the result of the human condition to turn in circles and the gradual loss of the Platonic influence assures it will get worse. Scientific knowledge manifesting as technology will far outweigh emotional moral understanding and easily lead to catastrophe. Only the arguments will get better. Do you think it can change for a minority and in turn this minority would have a beneficial effect on humanity in general?
A grain of sand can force a man to stop walking the path he is on. Observing a beautiful flower on the side of the road can do the same.
For example, do you believe that people can unite in the desire to experience the higher conscious perspective which unites opposing opinions? Consider the beginning of the preamble from Transdisciplinarity, Do you think it is just wishful thinking or could it have a beneficial effect for humanity?
It must be forced into reality through the application of reason. Take for example a seed. It simultaneously destroys both itself and the ground around it in order to give birth to a plant. This plant in turn resynthesizes the stability of the soil while manifesting the soil as part of itself. The seed represents the light of reason, the soil represents the darkness of ignorance. Life finds a way through the chaos for it transcends chaos into "being". It does not matter whether I, or you, or any of these scientists fail. Someone will take our places and unity will spring forth. Destiny is the truest form of unity.
Can others unite in similar efforts regardless of secular opposition to the existence of a realistic conscious higher perspective or the relationship between knowledge and opinions described by Plato?
The current methodology is self-defeating due to its inability to reflect upon itself.
http://ciret-transdisciplinarity.org/chart.php#en
CHARTER OF TRANSDISCIPLINARITY
(adopted at the First World Congress of Trandisciplinarity, Convento da Arrábida, Portugal,
November 2-6, 1994)
Preamble
Whereas, the present proliferation of academic and non-academic disciplines is leading to an exponential increase of knowledge which makes a global view of the human being impossible;
Whereas, only a form of intelligence capable of grasping the cosmic dimension of the present conflicts is able to confront the complexity of our world and the present challenge of the spiritual and material self-destruction of the human species;
Whereas, life on earth is seriously threatened by the triumph of a techno-science that obeys only the terrible logic of productivity for productivity's sake;
Whereas, the present rupture between increasingly quantitative knowledge and increasingly impoverished inner identity is leading to the rise of a new brand of obscurantism with incalculable social and personal consequences;
Whereas, an historically unprecedented growth of knowledge is increasing the inequality between those who have and those who do not, thus engendering increasing inequality within and between the different nations of our planet;
Whereas, at the same time, hope is the counterpart of all the afore-mentioned challenges, a hope that this extraordinary development of knowledge could eventually lead to an evolution not unlike the development of primates into human beings;
Therefore, in consideration of all the above, the participants of the First World Congress of Transdisciplinarity (Convento da Arrábida, Portugal, November 2-7, 1994) have adopted the present Charter, which comprises the fundamental principles of the community of transdisciplinary researchers, and constitutes a personal moral commitment, without any legal or institutional constraint, on the part of everyone who signs this Charter.,………………………..
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 pm Eodnhoj7
Just so I understand you better, do you discriminate between intuition defined as “the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.” And analysis defined as “the process of separating something into its constituent elements”? Are they related within the definition of reason?
Ansiktsburk wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:42 am Nick and John -
Reading your discussion on "how to understand something", I want to take the examples of when Timaios discusses what a person is made up of, triangles of fire and what not, versus the discussion Platon has in numerous dialogues about what kind of state is the best, versus his discussions about friendship or love, which are pretty accurate still.
All things are not the same. Are not of the same category, you might say. Some things we CAN say immediately with no big risk of failure. Like mathematical facts or stuff we have learned from natural science, we can pretty much say - bang - this is what it is.
Assuming we sense it correctly and the Hologram Theory is incorrect. However the scientific method used to determined those facts was founded through the relation of abstract points (hypothesis formulation being one, testing another point, etc.) that must circulate in order to exist and "prove" truth. We are back to geometry again.
OK, there are things there that gets discovered, whe do not exactly know how DNA and stuff works, but we can be pretty sure of how to calculate distances, speeds for most practical reasons. Some good things has happened there since old Aristocles.
Good and bad have always "happened", the question is how to maintain the balance. Take for example the problem of "over-population" that many moderns technocrats view as a problem. Their technology created an imbalance between both man and environment that resulted in the vary same problem they sought to avoid.
In response sterilization, war, etc. were proposed solutions which fracture standard moral balance as man's as a means. In this respect a "cannibalisitic" culture arises that causes further regression until it cancels itself out.
But in the world of humans - in the world of politics, love, war, friendship, how to run a company, how to raise kids, the going is tougher. OK, we're pretty sure that Plato was wrong, and that the democracy is best.
Democracy is when the appetites rule over the head. Plato was right about democracies eventually ending in totalitarianism. Which is what we are observing now.
But definitely, here you cannot trust senses and do experiments.
And my view of the post-modern world is something like that people do get frustrated because the same progress is not done in the human world as in in the scientific world.
Unless knowledge is able to maintain a symmetry with its environment it is not full knowledge. Scientific progress is strictly corporate progress, as corporations limit most of the research except to "what they want". And what do the corporations want? What the people want, because the people keep the corporations in power through their appetites.
In these respects we are observing a system in which "appetite" reigns as the universal dictator, through technology, under the guise of "democracy".
People are spoiled with nice little truths. But at the end of the day, decisions will sometimes have to be made fast, without exact knowledge. A manager in a company will have to take decisions.As a politician for his resposibility within the state. Or a parent about what to do on the vacation. Plato discussed everything in this manner.
So, If there are facts, go use them. If I need to know something trivial, I look at Wikipedia and takes that for true, and that has never bited back at me so far. But as a manager, If I need to take decisions, the discussions in the management groups do really resemble a good Plato dialogue.
What I kind of want to say is - Probability beats truth nearly all the time.
Thanks for the non-probabilistic truth. I am all for the discussion of ideas.
Your thoughts on this?
In very simplified terms: Ideas form reality.
If you don't believe this then look at the advertising industry or the subject of "convenience" and "luxury" which is the justification for all modern invention. With the ability to reason, or observe the structure of an idea, a good idea can quickly become a bad one. It is in this ability to reason we able to observe structure and maintain balance. People naturally form ideas, however without the ability to observe the forms of the ideas and what constitutes them, the ideas are merely reflections of the material environment around them...specifically the one closed to them: the stomach and genitals.
And as reflections of the material environment around them they are subject to high degrees of flux and become unstable. This causes further instability between percieve ideas and the environment around them.
I am not against the study of "matter", or the aristotelian perspective, at all. However if it is not balanced with the Platonic Perspective problems occur.
Modern science however is not rooted in either, but rather in the formation of measurement systems suited to whatever "they feel" is right. Modern science claims "objectivity" but its roots are strictly subjective.