Philosophy Now Forum

Is there a difference between consciousness and self-awareness? If so what?

To some degree self-consciousness can be observed or measured in others, but is this the same as consciousness?

And if consciousness is not the same as self-awareness, then what is the difference?

What do you think?

Consciousness is the awareness of one's body and one's environment.
Self-awareness is the recognition of that consciousness—not only understanding that one exists, but further understanding that one is aware of one's existence.
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A_Seagull wrote:Is there a difference between consciousness and self-awareness? If so what?

To some degree self-consciousness can be observed or measured in others, but is this the same as consciousness?

And if consciousness is not the same as self-awareness, then what is the difference?

What do you think?

I think 'consciousness' is the state of perceiving one's environment, that which lays outside the self. 'Self-awareness' is the state where one can be the object of one's own attention, with an understanding that it is themselves of which they are aware. I only qualify it in this way because a baby, or possibly a cat, can take in their reflection in a mirror without knowing they are looking at themselves.*

I'm pretty certain very young children lack self awareness. It seems to kick in, in a more meaningful way, at around 7-8 years of age. They begin to self monitor and, based on that, judge and turn on other children. Prior to that most behaviour is learned by copying the 'rule establisher' (parents, nannies, teachers), who establish by repetition.They are driven by consumption/desire: the need to eat, sleep, play with certain toys, they must have and will fight over. To get them to understand what, and why, they have done wrong takes time and is linked to a growing sense of self-awareness that develops over time. It is after the self awareness kicks in that you get a child who learns to self-govern through self-awareness.

It's odd how the term 'self-consciousness' differs, in a 'dramatic' way, from 'consciousness' or 'self-awareness'. It's a term that suggests acute self-awareness in a painful way, having picked up a negative semantic connotation, linked to shyness or low self-esteem.


( * In the 1970's, psychologist Gordon Gallup Jnr, developed the 'mirror test' (sometimes called the 'mark test' or the 'mirror self-recognition test'). It was a behavioural technique developed to determine whether animals possessed the ability to 'self-recognise' themselves. In the original test, an animal, was anaesthetised and then marked, e.g. painted, or a sticker attached, on an area of the body. On waking, and being placed in front of a mirror, if the animal's attention was drawn to the mark, it was taken as an indication that the animal perceived the reflected image as itself, rather than that of another animal.

Very few species have passed the MSR test. To date, only humans, great apes, a single Asiatic elephant, dolphins, orcas, and the Eurasian magpie have passed the MSR test. Many animals have been reported to fail the test, including giant pandas, sea lions, dogs and several species of monkey.

The MSR test continues to be the traditional method for attempting to establish, and measure, self-awareness, although its reliability has been questioned.)

It seems to me that self-awareness is something that can be observed by outsiders. It can be 'measured' to some degree.

Consciousness is perhaps more the sensation of self awareness. It would seem to be something that is an inherent feature of the universe and yet one that is distinct from all other physical features.

ForCruxSake wrote:I'm pretty certain very young children lack self awareness. It seems to kick in, in a more meaningful way, at around 7-8 years of age. They begin to self monitor and, based on that, judge and turn on other children. Prior to that most behaviour is learned by copying the 'rule establisher' (parents, nannies, teachers), who establish by repetition.

This seems an underestimation. For instance, even the average predator shows self awareness when it avoids being seen; it is aware of itself in context with another mind, that of its prey. I see consciousness as wakefulness, unconsciousness as sleep or dormancy. Of course dormancy is relative, so there is still much activity and at least some sensing going on, even when we are asleep.

I've wondered about the mirror test as per the quote in your post. I suspect that, at least for some species, expecting them to respond to a reflection is like expecting humans to respond to having their own smell wafted back at them. We might even notice our own odour, but would probably not care enough to react. Dogs in front of mirrors seem similar. Humans, dolphins and apes can smell, but their major focus is visual. Dogs can see but their focus is deeply olfactory; it is their main engagement with the world. If you reflect a dog's own odour back at it you'd probably get a different result.

I just Googled for an experiment of that ilk and it seems that my intense behavioural study of the pooches at home is paying off http://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-offici ... sciousness

ForCruxSake wrote:They are driven by consumption/desire: the need to eat, sleep, play with certain toys, they must have and will fight over. To get them to understand what, and why, they have done wrong takes time and is linked to a growing sense of self-awareness that develops over time. It is after the self awareness kicks in that you get a child who learns to self-govern through self-awareness.

That seems to be the next step after self awareness - self understanding, which could be thought of as self awareness over time. One of humanity's greatest differences with other species would seem to be the depth of our understanding of the past and future.

Greta wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote: It is after the self awareness kicks in that you get a child who learns to self-govern through self-awareness.

That seems to be the next step after self awareness - self understanding, which could be thought of as self awareness over time. One of humanity's greatest differences with other species would seem to be the depth of our understanding of the past and future.

Good post, nicely rounded off. Much enjoyed.

(Original post cut tidily short, as I'm convinced we litter the Internet with endless repetitions of posts!)

ForCruxSake wrote:Good post, nicely rounded off. Much enjoyed.

(Original post cut tidily short, as I'm convinced we litter the Internet with endless repetitions of posts!)

Cheers Crux. I agree that often not enough thought is put into how much of a quote is needed to maintain continuity without excess clutter.

To be fair, I've created much clutter in the past through excess pointless detail and digressions so it's all a learning curve, one way or another.

Scientists differ on the difference between consciousness and self-awareness, but here is one common explanation: Consciousness is awareness of one's body and one's environment; self-awareness is recognition of that consciousness—not only understanding that one exists, but further understanding that one is aware of one's existence.

The observer is the observed. However, if observation takes place without an image, then there is neither an observer nor observed. Instead there is only observation. ... Observation that takes place without an image means it is an observation in which neither the observer nor observed exist.

All images therefore are of the imageless. Illusions appearing real.




“to understand the confusion and misery that exist in ourselves, and in the world, we must first find clarity within ourselves and this clarity comes about through right thinking...Right thinking comes with self knowledge. Without understanding yourself, you have no basis for thought; without self-knowledge what you think is not true”

A_Seagull wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:13 am Is there a difference between consciousness and self-awareness? If so what?

To some degree self-consciousness can be observed or measured in others, but is this the same as consciousness?

And if consciousness is not the same as self-awareness, then what is the difference?

What do you think?

Self-awareness occurs when one can, properly and accurately, answer the question; 'Who am 'I'?' Until then, obviously one is NOT really yet self-aware. One, obviously, may be aware that there is a 'self', but only when thy Self is Truly KNOWN could a person be then accurately considered to have True 'Self'-awareness. Only then could be said to be a Truly Self-aware individual.

'Consciousness', Itself, occurs at and with the conscious discovering/knowing of thy Self. When one KNOWS thy Self FULLY, then that Truly is Consciousness, Itself.

ALL knowledge is, controversially, 'already known'; either consciously, sub-consciously, or unconsciously known.

So, when thee proper and correct answer to, Who 'I' am, is consciously known, then that One is, now, Consciousness, Itself.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:15 am

A_Seagull wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:13 am Is there a difference between consciousness and self-awareness? If so what?

To some degree self-consciousness can be observed or measured in others, but is this the same as consciousness?

And if consciousness is not the same as self-awareness, then what is the difference?

What do you think?

Self-awareness occurs when one can, properly and accurately, answer the question; 'Who am 'I'?' Until then, obviously one is NOT really yet self-aware. One, obviously, may be aware that there is a 'self', but only when thy Self is Truly KNOWN could a person be then accurately considered to have True 'Self'-awareness. Only then could be said to be a Truly Self-aware individual.

'Consciousness', Itself, occurs at and with the conscious discovering/knowing of thy Self. When one KNOWS thy Self FULLY, then that Truly is Consciousness, Itself.

ALL knowledge is, controversially, 'already known'; either consciously, sub-consciously, or unconsciously known.

So, when thee proper and correct answer to, Who 'I' am, is consciously known, then that One is, now, Consciousness, Itself.

If it is seen that the self is an illusion, then what separates self consciousness from consciousness?

First we think we are the body, then we discard this view and identify with our thoughts and emotions and volition. Then, it is seen that thoughts, volition and emotion can be seen along with the body, so there comes a division between the observed and the observer, or the self. Then the focus can come back to the experience itself, to look for the one looking, and it can be seen that the one looking can’t be found, and there is just experience. An imaginary observer is created after there is an observation, to take ownership of the observed and form some intention, but this imaginary observer is a illusion.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:34 am

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:15 am

A_Seagull wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:13 am Is there a difference between consciousness and self-awareness? If so what?

To some degree self-consciousness can be observed or measured in others, but is this the same as consciousness?

And if consciousness is not the same as self-awareness, then what is the difference?

What do you think?

Self-awareness occurs when one can, properly and accurately, answer the question; 'Who am 'I'?' Until then, obviously one is NOT really yet self-aware. One, obviously, may be aware that there is a 'self', but only when thy Self is Truly KNOWN could a person be then accurately considered to have True 'Self'-awareness. Only then could be said to be a Truly Self-aware individual.

'Consciousness', Itself, occurs at and with the conscious discovering/knowing of thy Self. When one KNOWS thy Self FULLY, then that Truly is Consciousness, Itself.

ALL knowledge is, controversially, 'already known'; either consciously, sub-consciously, or unconsciously known.

So, when thee proper and correct answer to, Who 'I' am, is consciously known, then that One is, now, Consciousness, Itself.

If it is seen that the self is an illusion, then what separates self consciousness from consciousness?

But the 'self' is NOT an illusion, in the sense that it does not exist. When the 'self' is discovered to be an illusion, this is because what is discovered is that the 'self' is NOT actually what it thinks or believes it is.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:34 am First we think we are the body, then we discard this view and identify with our thoughts and emotions and volition. Then, it is seen that thoughts, volition and emotion can be seen along with the body, so there comes a division between the observed and the observer, or the self.

How can thoughts, volition, and emotion can be seen along with the body?

I do not see nor follow the "division", which you seem to be seeing.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:34 am Then the focus can come back to the experience itself, to look for the one looking, and it can be seen that the one looking can’t be found, and there is just experience.

But just because 'you' cannot YET find some thing, that, in NO WAY means that 'I' have NOT YET already found it.

To me, the One who is looking AND experiencing is the One and SAME thing.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:34 am An imaginary observer is created after there is an observation,

Could it also be said and argued that, 'An imaginary experiencer is created after there is an experience'?

If no, then why not?

Dimebag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:34 am to take ownership of the observed and form some intention, but this imaginary observer is a illusion.

But is NOT ALL 'imaginary things' just an 'illusion'?

Would, for example, an 'imaginary experiencer' just be an 'illusion' also?

And, who and/or what is this 'experiencer' if it is NOT an 'observer'?

How could an 'experiencer', experience, or even exist, if it could not observe, listen, smell, taste, nor feel?

If 'one' did not have one of these five sense, then how could 'it' possible experience ANY thing?

By the way, so to 'you' (whatever 'you' want to say 'you' ARE), are now looking for an 'experiencer' rather than an observer. But what I have found is that sometimes when wanting to find some thing, then that can be done much quicker, much simpler, and much easier by just LOOKING and OBSERVING, rather than by just 'experiencing' only, If, in fact, that 'experiencing' could actually be done without the senses.

What is the difference between observing and experiencing?

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:28 pm What is the difference between observing and experiencing?

memory

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:40 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:28 pm What is the difference between observing and experiencing?

memory

-Imp

Does this mean that one cannot remember what is observed? Or rather is it what one has experienced that can’t be stored in memory?