Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:Lacewing wrote:Children don't need a god... why is that?
Is it because they already have a god?
When I was a child, there was no idea of anything as a "god". I just felt that I belonged in the universe, even though the adults seemed dangerous to be around. I could tell they didn't know what they were doing... so I didn't see them as gods. When my mother and her new boyfriend introduced me to the idea of church and god, it seemed like just another strange thing that adults were doing.
There was no idea of a "god" because like all human ideas that is just what they are, a human made up idea.
That feeling of belonging in the Universe was and obviously is all you really needed. The feeling of not belonging is probably what leads most people to follow ridiculous and mystical things.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:To a wide-eyed, open and accepting child is not the ones who show them true love and care for them the most, the only God they need, and want? In the eyes of a child, adults are God, right?
Maybe for some. But I'm guessing there are a lot of kids who have felt like me, and didn't think that.
I, as a child, like you never felt that nor thought that also. In fact i wished i was never born at all because of my "mother". But as an adult I can see within children who are loved and cared for by an adult that they want to listen to every word of that adult and follow that adult like they are a "God". In those children eyes who have had that experience I have seen that they want to and will worship those loving and caring adults like a "God". Those children see them as "God" like. (Remembering that the word 'God' as never really been defined successfully yet by human beings).
When I wrote, "... wide-eyed, open and accepting child..." I was meaning a very, very young child. A new born human child is open and ready to be accepted, loved, and cared for, but if that never eventuates, then they will certain not look at the meant to be care givers as any such god at all. Only the children who want to and do consciously follow in the footsteps of their parents/care givers see them as "God" like.
Lacewing wrote: I felt love and care from something built-in, that connected me with the rest of life. That's what got me through. Some kids might not have that either. Still... that was not a god to me. There was nothing "separate"... there were only people thinking and behaving as if they were separate.
That thing from within was also the only thing that got me "through" as a child. That connection you felt, to Me, sort of and partly explains what God actually is. My upbringing and the interpretations taught to me through any religious teachings only ever taught me to NOT believe in any such thing as a god. But it was from within that I felt a belonging to some thing, of which I had no clue what it was. Also from that thing within I was told and taught that I was an equal with all and every thing. I learned that no thing was better nor worse than me.
Lacewing wrote:I don't know about the rest of what you say in your post, Ken... as it might be your own experience of what is true. The problem can come when we try to apply our own experience onto some ultimate template of truth for all, right? There are so many variations.
Exactly right. But only by the sharing of ALL of these experiences can we find the ones that we also experienced, and thus shared. It is through those commonly shared experiences that common sense will prevail and show us all what is actually right in life. To
believe that one individual has the ultimate truth is a delusion to the utmost. But to only
think that one has the ultimate truth and wants to share that knowledge in order to find out if what they think is actually true or right is actually true and right is another thing. The only way a human being can know if what they think is right is to share that knowledge with others so that they can shone more light on the subject and give more insight into it.
Lacewing wrote: This is why I cannot agree with the way theism is typically superimposed over all else.
I do not see that theism is. I learned from a early age that what is taught as being right can be so terribly and horribly wrong. I just see people
trying to superimpose things over other things but I do not see it actually happen. I can try to expose where this happens and show why it happens but I can not make people listen.
Lacewing wrote: It is not truth for a lot of people.
Of course not, but that is not to say there is not Truth in it. It is just the way it is interpreted and taught that is what is not truthful about it.
Lacewing wrote: There is so much more than any particular theism. I wish particularized theists could accept/acknowledge that, but I realize that would go against their whole particular theist foundation/identity of "having THE ultimate answer/truth that applies to all". It just seems so absurd to believe.
To Me, to
believe (in) any thing is absurd.
This is not a complaint but just a comment. What I have notice between us with our chats is that you have a very dislike to the point of hatred of being forced to listen to and believe in any thing that you do not want to listen to and nor believe in. You appear to hate any thing that comes across as an ultimate truth that must be listened and adhered to. This is totally understandable and this dislike probably goes for every human being, but your dislike for this is so much, that you think that whatever another is saying could be them trying to force you to listen to it as though it is being passed on as the ultimate truth. What I try to express is not what I say is the ultimate truth but rather only what I
think is right, which could in fact be totally wrong. I do NOT know the ultimate Truth and because I want to remain truly open to finding It, if It exists, then I want to be informed when what I say is wrong, and explained why it is wrong so that I can continue learning more and more.
The level of fear of being indoctrinated and the hatred of being forced to listen to what is obviously wrong is obviously due to your past experiences but do not let this stop you from being open to what may just be possible. If, and when, I use any words or texts familiar with religion they are certainly not used in the context or what is perceived within and taught within religious teachings.
The only thing that I would say is 'the ultimate answer or Truth that applies to all' IS
that what we ALL agree with and accept as being the ultimate answer or Truth. However, even this Truth, as I continually say, has to also NOT be believed in but rather we all be and remain open to, just because a further or more ultimate answer or Truth may or will come along.
Lacewing wrote:I consider the vastness of the universe and think: How could there possibly only be one appropriate way to do or perceive ANYTHING???
Do you think that as a truly opened question looking for an answer, or do you just think that and believe there could be no answer for it?
For example, surely you do not think that abusing children is an appropriate way?
Now, if you think that loving and caring for children instead of abusing them is an appropriate way, and, every other human being thinks that exact same way is the one appropriate way to do some thing, that is, to raise children better or more appropriately, then that way of finding and discovering this
agreement is HOW there could possibly be one appropriate way to do or perceive ANYTHING. The finding of or discovering of the way that does allow all human beings to find agreement might just be one appropriate way to do or perceive ANYTHING.
The way in which we find out what it is that we are ALL in agreement with might just be the appropriate way to do and perceive any thing.
The only way, that I know of, anyway, to find out what it is that we all agree with is to share our thoughts or perceptions and instead of ridiculing or dismissing them we openly and honestly discuss them and share own own thoughts and perceptions back in a peaceful and constructive way until agreement is reached. Discussing anything KNOWING that there are just as many differing thoughts and perceptions as there are human beings in the world, and knowing that they are all different because of all the differing past experiences each human being has been exposed to will help in the way to discover 'what it is' that we ALL are in agreement with.
By the way if there is only one way that absolutely every human being is in agreement with that is the only one appropriate way to do ANYTHING, then that way must be the only one way. For the time being anyway until a more appropriate way is discovered. By the way I think it is obvious that the only appropriate way to perceive anything is the one and only way that happens now. That way is through the many different ways as there are human beings. The ONLY way to perceive anything is the way YOU perceive it, and the way YOU perceive anything is the way you have learned, which has come from your very own personal past experiences. What you have been exposed to up to now teaches you how to perceive ANYTHING.
Our efforts to pin down specific answers/views seem only for our own temporary stabilizing comfort... because otherwise, our obsession with limited conclusions doesn't truthfully represent the potential of a seemingly limitless universe that we only perceive a tiny fraction of (if even that).[/quote]
The only conclusion I have arrived at is to remain completely open always, because if for example the Universe is limitless, then I will never discover nor learn and know this if I believe otherwise.
I certainly do not have any limited conclusions because I know just how very debilitating this is to human beings and for the human race.
That's gotta be in the UK.
