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Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:42 am
by bahman
The key question is that whether we can change our fate or not. To illustrate the dilemma consider two person X and Y, who X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell as the result of their actions. Now replace X by Y and vice versa at time of their births and you get that Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell. This basically shows that we have no control on our fates and question the concept of Heaven, Hell and God's foreknowledge.
Your Thought.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:14 am
by Hobbes' Choice
bahman wrote:The key question is that whether we can change our fate or not. To illustrate the dilemma consider two person X and Y, who X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell as the result of their actions. Now replace X by Y and vice versa at time of their births and you get that Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell. This basically shows that we have no control on our fates and question the concept of Heaven, Hell and God's foreknowledge.
Your Thought.
Fate only exists in the mind of God. For the rest of us deterministic agents we are able to change according to the vicissitudes of life and change outcomes based on our motivations.
The future is unknowable and so fate is empty
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:24 pm
by HexHammer
Some can, some can't, why prophecies often are faulty.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:28 pm
by bahman
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
The key question is that whether we can change our fate or not. To illustrate the dilemma consider two person X and Y, who X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell as the result of their actions. Now replace X by Y and vice versa at time of their births and you get that Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell. This basically shows that we have no control on our fates and question the concept of Heaven, Hell and God's foreknowledge.
Your Thought.
Fate only exists in the mind of God. For the rest of us deterministic agents we are able to change according to the vicissitudes of life and change outcomes based on our motivations.
The future is unknowable and so fate is empty
The fact that we don't know future doesn't change our fates. That is true if we are deterministic agents and it even is true if we are undeterministic agents since God knows future and there is only one future.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:08 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
bahman wrote:Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
The key question is that whether we can change our fate or not. To illustrate the dilemma consider two person X and Y, who X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell as the result of their actions. Now replace X by Y and vice versa at time of their births and you get that Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell. This basically shows that we have no control on our fates and question the concept of Heaven, Hell and God's foreknowledge.
Your Thought.
Fate only exists in the mind of God. For the rest of us deterministic agents we are able to change according to the vicissitudes of life and change outcomes based on our motivations.
The future is unknowable and so fate is empty
The fact that we don't know future doesn't change our fates.
There is no such thing as fate.
We make our future each day.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:42 pm
by Ginkgo
bahman wrote:The key question is that whether we can change our fate or not. To illustrate the dilemma consider two person X and Y, who X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell as the result of their actions. Now replace X by Y and vice versa at time of their births and you get that Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell. This basically shows that we have no control on our fates and question the concept of Heaven, Hell and God's foreknowledge.
Your Thought.
Fatalism is the idea that we can choose any action we like but any action we choose will ultimately end in the same fate. So we can say we have no control over our fate but our actions are free.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:09 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Ginkgo wrote:bahman wrote:The key question is that whether we can change our fate or not. To illustrate the dilemma consider two person X and Y, who X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell as the result of their actions. Now replace X by Y and vice versa at time of their births and you get that Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell. This basically shows that we have no control on our fates and question the concept of Heaven, Hell and God's foreknowledge.
Your Thought.
Fatalism is the idea that we can choose any action we like but any action we choose will ultimately end in the same fate. So we can say we have no control over our fate but our actions are free.
Fatalism means having free will for no reason. It is also a denial of determinism, since it holds that your actions have no impact, that
whatever you do, you cannot alter fate,
because it it written!
This is wonderfully exemplified in
Lawrence of Arabia. when Lawrence returns to the desert to bring back a boy that others think was fated to die - Lawrence is later force to execute the boy for a crime, and has to hear "I told you so" from Auda Abu Tayi.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:12 pm
by bahman
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Fate only exists in the mind of God. For the rest of us deterministic agents we are able to change according to the vicissitudes of life and change outcomes based on our motivations.
The future is unknowable and so fate is empty
The fact that we don't know future doesn't change our fates.
There is no such thing as fate.
We make our future each day.
I thought you believe that we don't have free will. Do you believe on determinism? Do you believe God knows future? We have fate even if we have free will if you believe on God's foreknowledge.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:14 pm
by bahman
Ginkgo wrote:
bahman wrote:
The key question is that whether we can change our fate or not. To illustrate the dilemma consider two person X and Y, who X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell as the result of their actions. Now replace X by Y and vice versa at time of their births and you get that Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell. This basically shows that we have no control on our fates and question the concept of Heaven, Hell and God's foreknowledge.
Your Thought.
Fatalism is the idea that we can choose any action we like but any action we choose will ultimately end in the same fate. So we can say we have no control over our fate but our actions are free.
I agree with what you stated.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:17 pm
by Ginkgo
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Fatalism means having free will for no reason. It is also a denial of determinism, since it holds that your actions have no impact, that whatever you do, you cannot alter fate, because it it written!
This is wonderfully exemplified in Lawrence of Arabia. when Lawrence returns to the desert to bring back a boy that others think was fated to die - Lawrence is later force to execute the boy for a crime, and has to hear "I told you so" from Auda Abu Tayi.
Exactly what I was thinking. That scene from Lawrence of Arabia did spring to mind when I made my post, but I didn't think anyone would remember it.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:13 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
bahman wrote:Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
The fact that we don't know future doesn't change our fates.
There is no such thing as fate.
We make our future each day.
I thought you believe that we don't have free will. Do you believe on determinism? Do you believe God knows future? We have fate even if we have free will if you believe on God's foreknowledge.
The universe is deterministic. There is no God. There is not fate.
Chew it over.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:13 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Ginkgo wrote:Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Fatalism means having free will for no reason. It is also a denial of determinism, since it holds that your actions have no impact, that whatever you do, you cannot alter fate, because it it written!
This is wonderfully exemplified in Lawrence of Arabia. when Lawrence returns to the desert to bring back a boy that others think was fated to die - Lawrence is later force to execute the boy for a crime, and has to hear "I told you so" from Auda Abu Tayi.
Exactly what I was thinking. That scene from Lawrence of Arabia did spring to mind when I made my post, but I didn't think anyone would remember it.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:16 pm
by bahman
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
There is no such thing as fate.
We make our future each day.
I thought you believe that we don't have free will. Do you believe on determinism? Do you believe God knows future? We have fate even if we have free will if you believe on God's foreknowledge.
The universe is deterministic. There is no God. There is not fate.
Chew it over.
Are you a part of universe, I mean are you deterministic?
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:18 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
bahman wrote:Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
I thought you believe that we don't have free will. Do you believe on determinism? Do you believe God knows future? We have fate even if we have free will if you believe on God's foreknowledge.
The universe is deterministic. There is no God. There is not fate.
Chew it over.
Are you a part of universe, I mean are you deterministic?
Obviously.
Re: Dilemma of fate
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:01 pm
by bahman
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
The universe is deterministic. There is no God. There is not fate.
Chew it over.
Are you a part of universe, I mean are you deterministic?
Obviously.
So you have a fate whether there is or there is not a God. That is true because there is only one future which in principle can be known from the past.