Philosophy Now Forum

A friend once told me that we are not children of god, just mere creations. For example, we are like a painting to an artist or a statue to a sculptor. The creator of everything may have once felt pride, excitement, and joy from creating all of existence. I wonder what the creator feels now, if anything? I wonder if the creator is like us? Does the creator get bored with us and the universe? Sometimes I think we are just play things to an immature god. Perhaps we are just mere entertainment. All the drama of our lives and all the tragedy might server as amusement for the creator.

Does the creator commit murder? We all have to die sooner or later, at least in this existence. It seems like none of us are getting out of this alive, and most of us will die painful deaths. Sometimes it seems like we are created to experience the greatest of all losses, the loss of life itself. Why create us with the destiny to die? I think we exist to die so that we may understand and become enlightened. This is why there is so much suffering and pain in the world, so that we may learn from it. Whether that is the creator's intentions or not, if provides purpose to something so horrific.

We have the power and capability to make this existence much better than it is. What prevents us from changing the world we live in? I believe it is greed and manipulation. Very wealthy and powerful people want to keep the world in turmoil, because they profit off it in some form or another. Value, to put a value on anything seems evil to me. All are one, and one is all. We are all made up of the cosmos, granted some things seem more useful than others. We even value the life of some over the lives of others. Is this not wrong? All of existence is one big mess, and I think it should be up to us to correct it. We live in an imperfect world, an imperfect creation I think. Is this undeniable? Look at the world around you.

Most living things are what makes the world imperfect. Maybe that is why we are treated so poorly and given such a horrible fate. To survive we must destroy or kill other creations to sustain our own life. Why were we created so poorly with these flaws? Yet there is beauty, entertainment, and purpose in imperfection. If we were created perfect in a perfect existence then there would be nothing to accomplish and nothing to live for. This is why perfection probably cannot be achieved. There will probably always be good and evil in the world.

To correct myself I don't think good and evil exist, I think you have creatures just doing the best they can with what they are given. Free will almost seems like an illusion. We all have to make due with the body, mind, and circumstances we are given. Some are better suited than others to handle what life throws at them. We are all given varying levels of intellect and physical prowess. We are also given varying talents and gifts that others may not have. I believe this is so because we are meant to work together or have conflict with one another until a solution is reached. Usually the dominant side wins because of superior factors. Does that mean the opposing side was wrong? No, in fact most history is written by the victors.

As sentient beings we have the capacity to interact with the world around us in a productive way. As a result of us interacting with the world around us we can do wonderous or horrible things. Some of us live life by simply coasting along while thinking that we don't have any power to change things or that we don't have the power to create something. Well I'm here to tell you that you do have the power and the capacity to influence the world around us.

Some of the obstacles preventing you from changing the world around you are religion, government, and the people around you. We will start with religion first. Religion has some good points in some cases, and can help people live positive lives. Religion was developed to control the people because people need ethics and standards of living. Without ethics and standards of living the functionality of civilization is hindered by immoral actions. Why was religion created though?

I believe religion was created to control the masses. Can we have ethics and standards of living without the control of religion? I would say yes, and here is why. Most religions promise something in return for good behaviour, such as going to heaven. Imagine a civilization or a person that did something not because it was promised something in return, but because it was simply the right thing to do. Would such actions not be the proper path to take?

Our greed and childlike tendencies get the best of us. Even at an early age we are conditioned to believe that we should be rewarded for our actions. We are being taken advantage of. They are playing on our fears, desires, and innate flaws. In order to grow as a species and civilization we must overcome the reward system that has been set in place by the powers that be. Simply do something because you feel it is the right thing to do, not because you might get something as a reward.

How does religion use fear? What better way to get someone to do what you want by threatening them with eternal damnation, pain, and suffering. Does an all loving and all good god really want you to suffer for all eternity? After all, that god created you with innate flaws to begin with did they not? Why else would you struggle with good and evil? Would an all good god or religion need to use fear as a motivator?

I'm not saying that god doesn't exist. I'm just saying that the mortal representations of god are flawed, because we ourselves are flawed. If there is a god, then why did they create a life so cruel and full of so much conflict? Maybe god is testing not our ability to follow blindly, but testing our ability to question what is truly right and wrong, even if that wrong is being done by a god.

Government is an easy one, just look at the world around you. Most of us get up and have to go to work a meaningless job because of the parameters set by our governments. We should be spending more time doing meaningful things such as bettering our bodies, minds, and the world around us. Instead we are caught up in this competition with each other to get our basic needs met. The governments want us busy with such troubles because they don't want critical thinkers questioning the way things are run.

It is like a pyramid, with everyone on the top of the pyramid telling everyone below them what to do. What makes the people on top of the pyramid better than the people at the bottom of the pyramid? Nothing, the people on top profit from the people on the bottom. When our basic needs are met, we tend to be more productive and happy. The way things tend to be run now keep us in a loop of trying to get our basic needs met through constant labor. Get out of the rat race my friends.

If our basic needs are being met without working for them, then what should we be spending our time working on? I believe that once our basic needs are met we can pursue greater things. Somebody needs to do the work to provide us with the basic needs though. Our farmers for example should be treated with the greatest respect, because food is the corner stone of civilization. I think we need to rethink what tasks are truly important to the foundation of a civilized society.

Other people are the greatest hinderance to productive growth because we have so many different levels of intellect, which means varying opinions on how things should be run. There are so many of us due to overpopulation. We need to find a way to unite however and agree on things. It almost seems like the powers that be want us divided and fighting with each other, for we are easier to manipulate that way.

Pain and suffering are innate to this existence. No matter what we do we will experience at the very least pain during some time in our lives. What is the purpose of pain and suffering? One possibility is that we experience pain and suffering so that we may learn from it. Now what could we possibly learn from pain and suffering? Hopefully we learn how to prevent the causes of pain and suffering from happening again. One of the definitions of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results despite the outcomes. We truly live in an insane world then.

There is pain and suffering all around us, and we have it in our capacity to prevent it. We have the ability to change the world around us. We have the ability to learn from our mistakes. We experience pain and suffering to let us know that something is wrong or incorrect with the world around us. The next logical step would be to prevent those things from happening again. This is not something we should or can do alone. We are in great numbers for a reason, even though these great numbers can cause conflict. Great and horrible things can both come from conflict.

Conflict usually happens when there is a disagreement. No matter what there will always be conflict unless we eliminate the causes for the disagreement. I believe the source of these disagreements is a difference in perception, which can be caused by many different factors. Time will yield both destruction and growth. When something exists that is not right, there will always be someone who disagrees with it. The cycle exists until the will to fight is gone, until the perception is altered, or until the issue is resolved.

In my opinion, the more someone thinks the more suffering they experience. But what would we be if we did not think? What would our purpose be if we did not think? So we are given thought to add purpose to our lives.

Why must the innocent feel pain and suffering? Once again, to let us and them know that something is wrong so it can be fixed or prevented. This is why we feel compassion and empathy towards others. What happens when we ignore these feelings? Over time our perceptions are altered because of it, or we become numb to things that should bother us. We have to do things to survive in this horrible world. We do things to meet our needs and wants despite how it might affect other beings. This itself creates suffering in an individual sometimes. A guilty conscience can weight immensely on a person's mind. Once again, if these thoughts are ignored for long periods of time, a person becomes numb to them or their perception changes.

I believe more wrong and crime can occur when a person's perception changes or when a person becomes numb to their thoughts. After all, who would want to think when it causes pain and suffering? Often people will seek things to escape from their thoughts, such as mind altering substances, activities, or escaping reality through some other means. Many people use religion as an escape from reality. Perception determines a being's personal reality, but does not change what the reality of things actually are. Just because a person believes that everything is okay or will be okay doesn't change what something actually is or will be. Passing the duty onto a higher being is not the answer.

What happened to your tentacles?

Eh?

Osric wrote:A friend once told me that we are not children of god, just mere creations. For example, we are like a painting to an artist or a statue to a sculptor. The creator of everything may have once felt pride, excitement, and joy from creating all of existence. I wonder what the creator feels now, if anything? I wonder if the creator is like us? Does the creator get bored with us and the universe? Sometimes I think we are just play things to an immature god. Perhaps we are just mere entertainment. All the drama of our lives and all the tragedy might server as amusement for the creator.

I've used the analogy rather that would be to some 'god' as a computer is to us -- a 'tool' to extensively do what we could not do ourselves. In this way the art analogy works too. My own use of the computer is to suggest that if we designed some intelligence to computers to extensively BE conscious, the function it might serve us is to get it to do the extra work needed that we do not or cannot do for ourselves. The computer also serves too as a mode of entertainment, such as games, or, in general, the 'art' you mentioned above. But if such a 'god' lacked company other than itself, the 'art' would lack even more justification because it is usually an 'expression' meant to communicate to another. Perhaps if most religions were as to a pantheon of other gods, then the value of 'art' would be qualified.

Instead, it is more likely that should a 'god' exist by most monotheistic ideals, it would suggest that we serve to extend functionality for some other ulterior purpose, still beyond what it could do itself. We wouldn't be 'inferior' nor indebted to it any more than an artificial creation would be expected to serve us should we give it self-determination, something I doubt we'd do without great hesitation.

Reality though is more likely without a need for motive for any purpose. And it is only to the accidental function of evolution that favors that an animate creature would have to have some means to sense and interpret a relatively unpredictable local environment, that our consciousness resulted from only. We are evolved with a deluded sense of dual values that either act to entice us 'towards' something environmentally or to 'avoid' it. This requires an evolution of a consciousness that takes 'assignments' from ones' present environment to arbitrarily assign as 'good' ('towards' motivators) and 'bad' ('avoid' motivators). These go the same for our sensations of pleasure and pain.

It all then reduces to just genes, as memes, having only a function to 'copy' itself rather than not. Those things that lack such nature, lack the accidental features too needed for the complexity of anything 'animate' (as opposed to simply being moved by environmental factors alone, like a pebble that gets moved by a flowing river, or a leaf by the wind.)

So there actually is NOTHING to life other than what we are deluded into interpreting it as. Those delusions though are favored best by the utility of the delusion to serve us. So, if you are enjoying a 'good' life, there is no need to question it for NOT receiving it. You may grant some 'god' as favoring you in light of the guilt of witnessing all those who more relatively suffer. To such, religion functions to prevent you from feeling pressured to think as deep. In contrast, to those who catch the gambling addiction of 'faith' such that you sometimes win and sometimes lose without predictable certainty, religion is the 'feeling' that you are on some run and about to win if at least you keep investing rather than not.

As to those who 'suffer' relatively worse consistently, intelligence is a reflective accident too that justifies such 'wisdom' to explain why it is necessary for more losers to exist FOR any winner to exist as it creates the 'potential difference' needed to keep copying those selfish genes and memes.

Death, not life, is the true ideal balancing factor. Our 'curse' is to actually recognize this, as what I believe the story of Adam and Eve suggested. We are cursed beyond any 'god' to have the presence of a Tree of Wisdom there that represents our willingness to challenge something novel when we are certain to get bored for living a life in 'paradise' that doesn't mean anything UNTIL we actually KNOW the difference of what that innocence represented rationally. This requires us to eventually try the fruit of 'Wisdom' when or where we are not able to be satisfied with our circumstances, whether out of boredom or suffering. Only brain damage could reverse this curse if we could do so and still live. How could you unlearn what you 'knew' otherwise except for death itself.

So I understand the motive of religion but KNOW now that it is still a delusion that I could no longer 'undo' without seeking a way to get some brain damage or death itself. But now, I'm beginning to wonder if even death is possible? In that case, it might be worse should we discover an eternity where we could NEVER die! If you can't imagine this, just use the analogy of trying to find the same joke funny for eternity! Obviously, this isn't rational. Or do you still find it funny that the chicken crossed the road simply to get to the other side?

Another "pain and suffering" representative.

Osric, so what are some of the (specific) ways that pain and suffering dominate your daily life and/or the daily life of your friends and family members? I'm just curious what this is like/how it "flowers" for pain and suffering representatives.

I'm actually living pretty well at the moment. Throughout my life though I have seen and experienced suffering. Pain is an obvious one, everyone experiences pain. My experiences compel me to write about my perceptions on the situations I have witnessed. I simply wish to at least try and have an impact on the world around me in a positive manner. Not necessarily to end my own suffering, but to ease the general suffering I see in the world around me.

I myself suffer from schizophrenia, but things are actually going pretty good for me at the moment. I am grateful to have all my basic necessities met and to be physically healthy. While there are things I desire and I know I will never get, that creates some frustration and anger. Not so much as in the past, as I am learning to cope with the reality that I will be alone for the rest of my life. I do have friends who occasionally visit or ask about how I am doing though, which is nice. It is depressing to go anywhere and see couples though. I think to myself, why can't I have that? Then it is a reminder that I can't. Overall I try to stay busy by playing lots of video games, but they get boring sometimes. Video games get really boring when I continually lose over and over again too. Overall I'm just some loser who is trying to survive.

Truth is, I am not happy, and probably never will be. That is probably why I write about the things that bother me. They are an outlet and give me some hope I guess. Writing also stops me from internalizing thoughts too much in my head. I feel many of us have been dealt a great injustice sometimes. As for my family, most of us suffer from many physical and mental afflictions. I won't go into details out of respect for my family. It is not even about me or my family though for the most part though. It is about the way I perceive the world around me, and the way I see the world around me is not good. So it is natural to want to try and influence as many people as I can to change it.

I see so much conflict, abuse, and other evils in the world that it makes me sick. Why do these things thrive? Well, anyways, I've ranted enough for now. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask, and I hope I answered some of it at least.

Why do you think you can never have a romantic relationship? Plenty of people with schizophrenia do. With something like that, you just need to work at it--including working on yourself, how you go about trying, etc., and you can achieve it.

It isn't a matter of me being schizophrenic, well, that is only one reason. There are many reasons I can't have a romantic relationship.

Terrapin Station wrote:Why do you think you can never have a romantic relationship? Plenty of people with schizophrenia do. With something like that, you just need to work at it--including working on yourself, how you go about trying, etc., and you can achieve it.

Your positive gesture is all too common for those who have heard this over and over ...and ...over.... and over again.

I'm not trying to dismiss your take on this but have to point out that schizophrenia is just as likely a result of an environment that continues to impose the confusing positive assurances on those who literally do NOT have even the remote degree of prosperity that the average person experiences who defaults to presuming that if they can get such, ANYONE can. That's a delusion of bias that is NOT as realistic as you might think. As such, those who experience such a great degree of insult after insult yet is kept being told they ARE simply deluded, makes them the very schizophrenic personality to which they've become.

If you want to help, first accept his/her claim as 'real', not 'deluded' by some default and clear honesty of his/her problem.

Okay, but I'd bet that no matter what the situation, you could have a romantic relationship if you wanted one. Of course, it can't be that you'd only settle for Jessica Alba or something like that.

Osric wrote:It isn't a matter of me being schizophrenic, well, that is only one reason. There are many reasons I can't have a romantic relationship.

You're not being irrational. But admitting your problem often makes people simply excuse everything you say after that as likely the case. My advise is not to mention 'schizophrenic' to the average person who lacks knowing the meaning specifically. To them, they think of it as someone with severe down-syndrome announcing they are "retarded" and then still expect others to hear some rational proposal they have to solve the problem of computation in quantum mechanics using entanglement.

P.S. You write well and I understand. I can't say the same of myself for most can't get through a paragraph of what I've said without requiring great effort (and a bigger dictionary)

I've been trying to "fix" and improve myself for over 9 years now. It is not something you can fix or improve on is what I've learned, it simply is what it is. Some people are destined to be alone. But anyways, that is not the point of this post. My personal lack of a love life is not something I wish to discuss with just anyone anyways.

what if the gate to eternal life was like finding a needle in an endless land of haystacks. And if you ever found it you would have to deserve it fully to enter in.
Would you even bother to seek it? If you knew it was there would you still bother to seek it?
Or if someone told you the key to it is in your heart to deserve it would you seek it?
Perhaps this life is the only important one to human nature and true life itself is considered a meaningless trifle.
Yet the concept exists true life. The heart of compassion is it. The heart of giving deserve to those who truly do. The heart of humility. To see yourself as they are and not just for what they can get.
This is all there is and im gonna get my piece of it no matter what is their hearts but do they know that its the people that have heart care that create civil order and quality in life. For other than them its bastard eat bastard to get their pleasures. And those pleasures are their god and their religion unto death. Life ends anyway who gives a damn and so what. Hell is their bag!