Philosophy Now Forum

God is omniscient and timeless. This means that we are dealing with a block universe since all states of universe are known to God. This means that motion is an illusion since nothing changes in a block universe. We are however experience changes. This means that changes can only be described in term of changing the perspective of agents (simply moving along time axis). This however problematic since it requires that all agents are synchronised in what they experience.

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Motion can't be an illusion, because at the very least, the illusion moves. It would make no sense to say that the motion of the illusion is itself an illusion, and that would be an infinite regress. Thus, there is motion.

Terrapin Station wrote: Motion can't be an illusion, because at the very least, the illusion moves. It would make no sense to say that the motion of the illusion is itself an illusion, and that would be an infinite regress. Thus, there is motion.

Motion is an illusion in block universe. Think of a movie in which each frame resembles a state of universe. God is timeless and He knows all state of universe at once (the whole movie). This means that all state of universe exist. This means that the motion is an illusion since there is not really any changes in block universe as time passes. We just observe changes as we move along time axis like when we watch a movie.

bahman wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote: Motion can't be an illusion, because at the very least, the illusion moves. It would make no sense to say that the motion of the illusion is itself an illusion, and that would be an infinite regress. Thus, there is motion.

Motion is an illusion in block universe. Think of a movie in which each frame resembles a state of universe. God is timeless and He knows all state of universe at once (the whole movie). This means that all state of universe exist. This means that the motion is an illusion since there is not really any changes in block universe as time passes. We just observe changes as we move along time axis like when we watch a movie.

And although the movie appears to be moving, it's not going anywhere. The screen on which the movie is played does not move. There is no movie without the screen, so yes, motion is an illusion.

bahman wrote:We just observe changes as we move along time axis like when we watch a movie.

At which point you should say, "Oops, that's motion!"

There are no changes with no motion.

We can't MOVE along a time axis if there's no motion.

Movies don't work if there's no motion or change. The frames need to change from one to the other.

Motion cannot be an illusion. That idea is incoherent.

Dontaskme wrote:And although the movie appears to be moving, it's not going anywhere. The screen on which the movie is played does not move. There is no movie without the screen, so yes, motion is an illusion.

So in your view, the projected frames don't change? They don't move in the projector? The light projected onto the screen doesn't change/move?

Luke Skywalker, the universe is layered and it both moves and moves not.

Terrapin Station wrote: At which point you should say, "Oops, that's motion!"

There are no changes with no motion.

We can't MOVE along a time axis if there's no motion.

Movies don't work if there's no motion or change. The frames need to change from one to the other.

Motion cannot be an illusion. That idea is incoherent.

There is no change in block universe if you watch it from God perspective. We experience changes in our perspective because we are temporal beings embedded in the universe.

Greta wrote: Luke Skywalker, the universe is layered and it both moves and moves not.

What do you mean?

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote: And although the movie appears to be moving, it's not going anywhere. The screen on which the movie is played does not move. There is no movie without the screen, so yes, motion is an illusion.

So in your view, the projected frames don't change? They don't move in the projector? The light projected onto the screen doesn't change/move?

We simply move along time axis. We are agent which our perspective changes.

bahman wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote: At which point you should say, "Oops, that's motion!"

There are no changes with no motion.

We can't MOVE along a time axis if there's no motion.

Movies don't work if there's no motion or change. The frames need to change from one to the other.

Motion cannot be an illusion. That idea is incoherent.

There is no change in block universe if you watch it from God perspective. We experience changes in our perspective because we are temporal beings embedded in the universe.

Incoherent for a number of reasons including with respect to positing divine omniscience, because it would be saying that God can't know our perspective.

bahman wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote: And although the movie appears to be moving, it's not going anywhere. The screen on which the movie is played does not move. There is no movie without the screen, so yes, motion is an illusion.

So in your view, the projected frames don't change? They don't move in the projector? The light projected onto the screen doesn't change/move?

We simply move along time axis. We are agent which our perspective changes.

If we move, there is motion.

bahman wrote:

Greta wrote: Luke Skywalker, the universe is layered and it both moves and moves not.

What do you mean?

In a sense we are moving and in a sense we are not. On the perspective it depends, young Luke - both scale and relativity.

MTFBWY

Terrapin Station wrote:

bahman wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote: At which point you should say, "Oops, that's motion!"

There are no changes with no motion.

We can't MOVE along a time axis if there's no motion.

Movies don't work if there's no motion or change. The frames need to change from one to the other.

Motion cannot be an illusion. That idea is incoherent.

There is no change in block universe if you watch it from God perspective. We experience changes in our perspective because we are temporal beings embedded in the universe.

Incoherent for a number of reasons including with respect to positing divine omniscience, because it would be saying that God can't know our perspective.

Yes, timeless God cannot know our perspective because our perspective is temporal. There is nothing wrong with that.