Philosophy Now Forum

The Buddha said that it is more difficult for a being to obtain human birth that it would be for a turtle coming up from the depth of the ocean to put its head by chance through the opening of a wooden yoke tossed around by huge waves on the surface.

Imagine the whole cosmos of a billion universes as a vast ocean. Floating upon it is yoke, a piece of wood with a hole in it that can be fixed around the horns of draught oxen. This yoke, tossed here and there by the waves, sometime eastward, sometime westward, never stays in the same place even for an instant. Deep down in the depths of the ocean lives a blind turtle who rises up to the surface only once every hundred years. That the yoke and the turtle might meet is extremely unlikely. The yoke itself is inanimate; the turtle is not intentionally seeking it out. The turtle, being blind, has no eyes with which to spot the yoke. If the yoke were to stay in one place, there might be a chance of their meeting; but it is continually on the move. If the turtle were to spend its entire time swimming round the surface, it might, perhaps, cross paths with the yoke; but it surfaces only once every hundred years. The chances of the yoke and the turtle coming together are therefore extremely small. Nerveless, by sheer chance the turtle might still just slip its neck into the yoke. But it is even more difficult than that, the sutras say, to obtain a human existence with the eight freedom and ten advantages.

Nick_A wrote:We read of the greatness of humanity. But have you ever experienced a human being as opposed to potential human beings?

The Buddha said that it is more difficult for a being to obtain human birth that it would be for a turtle coming up from the depth of the ocean to put its head by chance through the opening of a wooden yoke tossed around by huge waves on the surface.

Imagine the whole cosmos of a billion universes as a vast ocean. Floating upon it is yoke, a piece of wood with a hole in it that can be fixed around the horns of draught oxen. This yoke, tossed here and there by the waves, sometime eastward, sometime westward, never stays in the same place even for an instant. Deep down in the depths of the ocean lives a blind turtle who rises up to the surface only once every hundred years. That the yoke and the turtle might meet is extremely unlikely. The yoke itself is inanimate; the turtle is not intentionally seeking it out. The turtle, being blind, has no eyes with which to spot the yoke. If the yoke were to stay in one place, there might be a chance of their meeting; but it is continually on the move. If the turtle were to spend its entire time swimming round the surface, it might, perhaps, cross paths with the yoke; but it surfaces only once every hundred years. The chances of the yoke and the turtle coming together are therefore extremely small. Nerveless, by sheer chance the turtle might still just slip its neck into the yoke. But it is even more difficult than that, the sutras say, to obtain a human existence with the eight freedom and ten advantages.

Dalek Prime wrote:Right up my alley. Let's talk.

There is potential. But only on the extent's side. There is nothing waiting to be brought in. Only newly created. But there is also better than good reason not to begin that life at conception, the biggest reason being that it doesn't need to be. Nothing missed, nothing lost.

Anyways Nick, if you can keep this on a rational level, I'm more than happy to continue.

thedoc wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:Right up my alley. Let's talk.

There is potential. But only on the extent's side. There is nothing waiting to be brought in. Only newly created. But there is also better than good reason not to begin that life at conception, the biggest reason being that it doesn't need to be. Nothing missed, nothing lost.

Anyways Nick, if you can keep this on a rational level, I'm more than happy to continue.

I agree, lets talk about Buddhism.

Dalek Prime wrote:

thedoc wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:Right up my alley. Let's talk.

There is potential. But only on the extent's side. There is nothing waiting to be brought in. Only newly created. But there is also better than good reason not to begin that life at conception, the biggest reason being that it doesn't need to be. Nothing missed, nothing lost.

Anyways Nick, if you can keep this on a rational level, I'm more than happy to continue.

I agree, lets talk about Buddhism.

Or not. Too many assumptions in it.

Nick_A wrote:We read of the greatness of humanity. But have you ever experienced a human being as opposed to potential human beings?

The Buddha said that it is more difficult for a being to obtain human birth that it would be for a turtle coming up from the depth of the ocean to put its head by chance through the opening of a wooden yoke tossed around by huge waves on the surface.

Imagine the whole cosmos of a billion universes as a vast ocean. Floating upon it is yoke, a piece of wood with a hole in it that can be fixed around the horns of draught oxen. This yoke, tossed here and there by the waves, sometime eastward, sometime westward, never stays in the same place even for an instant. Deep down in the depths of the ocean lives a blind turtle who rises up to the surface only once every hundred years. That the yoke and the turtle might meet is extremely unlikely. The yoke itself is inanimate; the turtle is not intentionally seeking it out. The turtle, being blind, has no eyes with which to spot the yoke. If the yoke were to stay in one place, there might be a chance of their meeting; but it is continually on the move. If the turtle were to spend its entire time swimming round the surface, it might, perhaps, cross paths with the yoke; but it surfaces only once every hundred years. The chances of the yoke and the turtle coming together are therefore extremely small. Nerveless, by sheer chance the turtle might still just slip its neck into the yoke. But it is even more difficult than that, the sutras say, to obtain a human existence with the eight freedom and ten advantages.

thedoc wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

thedoc wrote:
I agree, lets talk about Buddhism.

Or not. Too many assumptions in it.

Not really, some of it is just plane wrong, and it might be fun to explore what is right and wrong.

sthitapragya wrote:

Nick_A wrote:We read of the greatness of humanity. But have you ever experienced a human being as opposed to potential human beings?

The Buddha said that it is more difficult for a being to obtain human birth that it would be for a turtle coming up from the depth of the ocean to put its head by chance through the opening of a wooden yoke tossed around by huge waves on the surface.

Imagine the whole cosmos of a billion universes as a vast ocean. Floating upon it is yoke, a piece of wood with a hole in it that can be fixed around the horns of draught oxen. This yoke, tossed here and there by the waves, sometime eastward, sometime westward, never stays in the same place even for an instant. Deep down in the depths of the ocean lives a blind turtle who rises up to the surface only once every hundred years. That the yoke and the turtle might meet is extremely unlikely. The yoke itself is inanimate; the turtle is not intentionally seeking it out. The turtle, being blind, has no eyes with which to spot the yoke. If the yoke were to stay in one place, there might be a chance of their meeting; but it is continually on the move. If the turtle were to spend its entire time swimming round the surface, it might, perhaps, cross paths with the yoke; but it surfaces only once every hundred years. The chances of the yoke and the turtle coming together are therefore extremely small. Nerveless, by sheer chance the turtle might still just slip its neck into the yoke. But it is even more difficult than that, the sutras say, to obtain a human existence with the eight freedom and ten advantages.

You don't seem to realize that your glorified idea of humanity is as much of a myth as your God. There is no greatness to humanity. We are a plague on this earth and have proved it consistently enough that there can be no doubt about it. And whatever potential you keep harping about is just your refusal to see yourself for who you really are. As far as all other life on earth is concerned, we are monsters who are slowly but surely sending them all to extinction. There is really no bigger picture than that. And heaven help all other life forms if we can actually get in touch with our higher consciousness (which basically likes to kill children to just to make a point). Can you imagine the devastation we would wreak on earth if that happened?

The only way you will ever reach your potential is if you start apologizing to all other life forms for being born human and promising to do the least amount of harm to them before you die. I think they would be much happier than if you got in touch with your higher consciousness.

We first need to understand that we need to become as good as all other life forms on earth. We are not even that yet.

Dalek Prime wrote: I agree except for the last bit. We are outside nature by our very level of self-awareness. (See Zapffe.) In a sense, supernatural. There is no going back from that. The evolutionary genie is out of the bottle already.

sthitapragya wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote: I agree except for the last bit. We are outside nature by our very level of self-awareness. (See Zapffe.) In a sense, supernatural. There is no going back from that. The evolutionary genie is out of the bottle already.

Absolutely. There is no denying that. But I was addressing Nick's inflated sense of humanity. For all our awareness we still haven't understood how to live in harmony with other life forms. So as such our awareness is also our drawback and that maybe because it's too new and we need to come to terms with it. Only from that one perspective, which is also very important to the other life forms, we need to first become as 'good' as them. Kind of relearn. Nicks tone has always been about the absolute superiority of mankind. I was just reminding him that in some aspects, we are not even as good as other animals are. Our inspiration should be the wolves of Yellowstone, so to speak.

You don't seem to realize that your glorified idea of humanity is as much of a myth as your God. There is no greatness to humanity. We are a plague on this earth and have proved it consistently enough that there can be no doubt about it. And whatever potential you keep harping about is just your refusal to see yourself for who you really are. As far as all other life on earth is concerned, we are monsters who are slowly but surely sending them all to extinction. There is really no bigger picture than that. And heaven help all other life forms if we can actually get in touch with our higher consciousness (which basically likes to kill children to just to make a point). Can you imagine the devastation we would wreak on earth if that happened?

The only way you will ever reach your potential is if you start apologizing to all other life forms for being born human and promising to do the least amount of harm to them before you die. I think they would be much happier than if you got in touch with your higher consciousness.

We first need to understand that we need to become as good as all other life forms on earth. We are not even that yet.

Nick_A wrote:Sthit wrote:

You don't seem to realize that your glorified idea of humanity is as much of a myth as your God. There is no greatness to humanity. We are a plague on this earth and have proved it consistently enough that there can be no doubt about it. And whatever potential you keep harping about is just your refusal to see yourself for who you really are. As far as all other life on earth is concerned, we are monsters who are slowly but surely sending them all to extinction. There is really no bigger picture than that. And heaven help all other life forms if we can actually get in touch with our higher consciousness (which basically likes to kill children to just to make a point). Can you imagine the devastation we would wreak on earth if that happened?

The only way you will ever reach your potential is if you start apologizing to all other life forms for being born human and promising to do the least amount of harm to them before you die. I think they would be much happier than if you got in touch with your higher consciousness.

We first need to understand that we need to become as good as all other life forms on earth. We are not even that yet.

I agree. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. Water seeks its own level. We really can't do anything. Regardless of the finest speeches and platitudes nothing will change. Apologizing to dogs doesn't help. They just want their food. Yes I do believe it is possible to change what we ARE and become human as Buddha suggests. You say no and keep arguing about what we should DO. I'm more concerned with what we ARE.

We just told you what we are. And you seem to disagree. Without specifying why. Got me blocked, Nick? We not chat buddies anymore?

Nick_A wrote:D P wrote:

We just told you what we are. And you seem to disagree. Without specifying why. Got me blocked, Nick? We not chat buddies anymore?

I must have missed it. What are you? How would you describe your being? I'm not good at blocking. I never blocked anyone