Philosophy Now Forum

Hi, to any one who reads this. I have a general interest in Philosophy but my particular passion is Determinism. For many years I have believed that Free Will is an illusion, and that the rejection of that illusion is the most tremendously liberating experience. And in all those many years, I've never met a single soul who agrees with me. Is there anybody out there?

Free will is an illusion and has been demonstrated to be by neuroscience
That might explain why you have never met anyone who agrees with you

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.................................................I agree with the original poster...Unfortunately.




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Hey, Dave...welcome.

"the rejection of that illusion is the most tremendously liberating experience"

How can that be? If determinism is right (and I don't think it is), then that sense of liberation is as much an illusion as the sense of self-direction that informs free will (or agency).

If determinism is right, all you can really say is 'the illusion of rejecting an illusion feels liberating, but is itself just a determined event'. Of course, if determinism is right then you really got no say in what you say at all...

So when you feel like making your mother in law disappear for ever you just watch your hand grabbing a knife and see what happens ?

Or is the "Fate" moving your hand ?

Yeah, but are you a determinist because you want to be one, or determined to be one? And who the fuck cares anyways? You wouldn't know the difference. Big whoop.

I try to formulate even more deterministically:

I watch a feeling of annoyance regarding my mother in law enter my head.
I watch my hand form a fist and bump the table.
Then my body gets in motion, gets into the kitchen, one hand grabs a knife, my body moves swiftly to the sitting room where my mother in law is sitting and watching TV ...

Later on I watch my mouth telling inspector Barnaby that things just happen on their own because there is no free will.

"who the fuck cares anyways?"

Well, I do...kinda...sorta...mebbe.

"are you a determinist because you want to be one, or determined to be one?"

If Dave (and all the other determinists) are right, he has no more of a choice in recognizing determinism than I have in recognizing agency, as each of us is just a bio-robot going through programmed motions.

If I'm right (and Dave is self-directing), then Dave has a choice (and is responsible for his choices).

surreptitious57 wrote:Free will is an illusion and has been demonstrated to be by neuroscience
That might explain why you have never met anyone who agrees with you

What do you take to be the neuroscientific demonstration that free will doesn't obtain?

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.




.................................................I agree with the original poster...Unfortunately.




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But we are all determined never to care what you think.

henry quirk wrote:Hey, Dave...welcome.

"the rejection of that illusion is the most tremendously liberating experience"

How can that be? If determinism is right (and I don't think it is), then that sense of liberation is as much an illusion as the sense of self-direction that informs free will (or agency).

If determinism is right, all you can really say is 'the illusion of rejecting an illusion feels liberating, but is itself just a determined event'. Of course, if determinism is right then you really got no say in what you say at all...

Yep, that would be true, Henry. Good point.

I was having an argument with a Determinist once. He was trying to make his case that I should join him in his lunacy. So I said to him, "I'm sorry; I just can't believe you: you see, I was predetermined not to be able to."

He didn't know what to say, and gave up.

"He didn't know what to say, and gave up."

That's usually what happens with honest or insightful determinists...dishonest or dull ones just ignore the point and keep right on pressing, which, of course, is all they can do, if truly 'determined' (in any sense of the word).

a very very few very intelligent people does indeed have free will, but in extremely limited amount. We are habitual creatures filled with OCD and what not.

I was a detourminist once, but I got around it...

-Imp