Philosophy Now Forum

Who does God actually punish and judge? Your body dies. Let us assume you have a soul which is eternal. Then it is obvious that your soul gets punished. Which would imply that your body and brain are not responsible for your thoughts and actions but your soul is. We would have to assume that since the soul is eternal, it is definitely more powerful than the body and brain. So the soul controls the brain, which in turn controls the body.

Your soul is sent to earth in a body to avoid sinning but for some reason it cannot and so the soul suffers because it is the body with the five senses that feels the pain which somehow gets transmitted to the soul. Now your body dies. So the eternal soul leaves the body. It no more has the five senses with which to suffer. So how does God judge and punish it?

Also, the soul obviously knows God exists because it is eternal and has probably met God. Yet when it enters the body it forgets all about God which would explain why so many bodies believe in so many Gods and some don't believe God exists. It also forgets why it was sent to earth and keeps searching for a purpose through out the life of the body. Then the body dies. Does the soul then remember why it was sent to earth for?

It also implies that God sent the soul to earth to test whether the soul believes in God after being given a body and being made to forget that God exists. So obviously the soul did something to create this suspicion in God. what could a soul floating about eternally in a transcendent world do to create the suspicion?

Also, some souls are sent to the culture of the real God and most other souls are sent to other cultures where the soul never hears of the real God. Could there be a reason for this partiality? Also, what happens to souls which never come across or learn of the real God? Are they punished? If so, how?

I am assuming that the universe consists of the world, heaven and hell and purgatory. Before the soul entered the body, where did it live? Did it live in heaven? If so, are there rules in heaven which if the soul breaks it gets sent to earth as punishment? If so, how can we say that once the soul attains heaven it is for eternity? Obviously it is not otherwise, the soul would not be sent back to earth.

If however, souls in heaven stay there eternally and souls in hell stay there eternally, completely new souls have to be sent to earth. Where do these souls come from? Are they produced by God? Where does God produce them?

P.S: And what is this higher consciousness? If the soul is in control of the body, then the soul IS the higher consciousness, isn't it? If however, it means the brain trying to get in touch with the soul, what good would it do? It is anyway the soul which is control of the body and making it do sinny stuff. Unless the argument is that the brain is in control of the body. In which case the soul is not, and therefore once the body dies, the soul is innocent and cannot be punished.

I don't think that the soul exists before earth. I feel like you believe that souls are just floating around waiting to be sent to earth but I would say that they are created on earth. And heaven hell and purgatory aren't I the universe hell and purgatory are in the realm of conscienceness because they exist as a result of sentient beings actions. Heaven is a a realm of its own as it is a supreme star of being

Sthitapragya, I think you pretty much always ask really good questions. The people who have beliefs that are at the root of your questions, cannot (of course) answer when there is no logic for them to do so -- and they probably won't even look at or consider such questions, because: A) they cannot allow the dismantling of that which they are completely identified with (for fear of ceasing to be valid or exist); and/or B) the over-arching answer seems to be, "None of that matters because I will believe what I want to believe." It is a demonstration (I think) of the human will to believe the impossible and improbable and illogical... regardless of all else that might be in front of us. We do this in many ways... it's part of the human illusion... but theism seems to make it much more obvious.

I don't question the quality of "connection" and "broader awareness" that may be accessed through the vehicle of theism... rather it is the construction of the vehicle itself that draws critical challenges.

I imagine that there are greater/broader levels of awareness just out of phase with where humankind is vibrating -- and these can be accessed via many different ways, in brief glimpses that seem "beyond this world". However, just a few larger nudges might actually shift us such that we could see (and think) in a totally different way from this point forward... and that might make all the difference in the world! But for whatever reason, most of us are doing this "deep sleep" thing at the moment. I do think the larger "nudging" is taking place on a broad scale, but not without a lot of thrashing around to resist leaving the familiar dream. I'm trying to be at peace and have a sense of humor about our fitful state, while allowing myself (as many others are too) to be steadily nudged from my own sleep if possible. The time may come, however, when a bucket of cold water is dumped on our collective heads.

Then the theists and non-theists may all laugh together in memory of the pointless battles we engaged in. But here we are, until we're not; might as well have fun with it.

Oh, this is a good one!

sthitapragya wrote:Who does God actually punish and judge? Your body dies.

The ancient Hebrews had no problem with this: if Jehovah was pissed at you, he would smite you dead, and that was it. If He was only testing you or having a little joke, He would smite your wife, servants and children and cattle, and they would all stay dead, but if you passed the test, He'd replace them with new wives, servants, children and cattle. (Easy go, easy come; oh well.)
But the Christians upped the ante.

Let us assume you have a soul which is eternal. Then it is obvious that your soul gets punished. Which would imply that your body and brain are not responsible for your thoughts and actions but your soul is. We would have to assume that since the soul is eternal, it is definitely more powerful than the body and brain. So the soul controls the brain, which in turn controls the body.

Well, yeah. Whatever the body suffers or enjoys during life is irrelevant to the last judgment.

Your soul is sent to earth in a body to avoid sinning but for some reason it cannot and so the soul suffers because it is the body with the five senses that feels the pain which somehow gets transmitted to the soul. Now your body dies. So the eternal soul leaves the body. It no more has the five senses with which to suffer. So how does God judge and punish it?

Psycho-somatic torture. The body-nervous system map image has been imprinted on the soul during its earthly sojourn, so when God points His stylus at the phantom toes, the soul 'feel' the same pain that the body would experience if its toenails were pulled out. This is why sending small children to Hell is so unrewarding: they've had too little time to internalize the somatic map, or experience enough kinds of actual pain to respond appropriately.

Also, the soul obviously knows God exists because it is eternal and has probably met God.

What complicates that problem even more is that some Christians say every human soul is part of God: it's on vacation, on assignment, on a reconnaissance mission, or slumming.

Yet when it enters the body it forgets all about God

also toilet training, language, good manners, what happens if you take half a liter of Schnapps on an empty stomach and the x-tables. You need a fresh start with no ties, debts or distractions.

which would explain why so many bodies believe in so many Gods and some don't believe God exists.

They blunder into blind-denial cult of evidence-based intelligence-collection.

It also forgets why it was sent to earth and keeps searching for a purpose through out the life of the body. Then the body dies. Does the soul then remember why it was sent to earth for?

Not right off. The second bucket of water usually does the trick.

It also implies that God sent the soul to earth to test whether the soul believes in God after being given a body and being made to forget that God exists. So obviously the soul did something to create this suspicion in God. what could a soul floating about eternally in a transcendent world do to create the suspicion?

Nothing. But one that's trapped in a body that's able to partake of carnal delights, ego-gratification and intellectual autonomy might start asking all kinds of unauthorized questions.

Also, some souls are sent to the culture of the real God and most other souls are sent to other cultures where the soul never hears of the real God. Could there be a reason for this partiality?

It's a trick question. You're expected to see through the hollow sham of false religious cults and crave the Real Thing. If a Christian missionary is sent to your part of the world, you're to recognize their righteousness immediately, offer to build them a church, herd in other converts and be prepared for any form of horrible martyrdom at the hands of your erstwhile spiritual leaders.

Also, what happens to souls which never come across or learn of the real God? Are they punished? If so, how?

If the Good News doesn't get to your jungle fastness, it's okay to pine away in solitary, sullen rejection of your childhood cult.

I am assuming that the universe consists of the world, heaven and hell and purgatory. Before the soul entered the body, where did it live?

In or with God, depending whom you ask. But it was either comatose or embryonic, so it never knew much.

Did it live in heaven? If so, are there rules in heaven which if the soul breaks it gets sent to earth as punishment?

Naw. It's conscription. When your number comes around

If so, how can we say that once the soul attains heaven it is for eternity? Obviously it is not otherwise, the soul would not be sent back to earth.

... and around.... and around.... Unless the human bodies on earth make enough new people. That's why priests are so keen on reproduction for the masses - they've got seniority and don't want to be sent back for a third or fourth tour of duty.

If however, souls in heaven stay there eternally and souls in hell stay there eternally, completely new souls have to be sent to earth. Where do these souls come from? Are they produced by God? Where does God produce them?

They come out of His own spiritual substance. That's why God keeps getting smaller and meaner each generation.

P.S: And what is this higher consciousness? If the soul is in control of the body, then the soul IS the higher consciousness, isn't it?

To the extent that it's able to recall its pre-natal pep-talk, and follow the more garbled ecclesiastical instructions it receives on Earth.

If however, it means the brain trying to get in touch with the soul, what good would it do? It is anyway the soul which is control of the body and making it do sinny stuff. Unless the argument is that the brain is in control of the body. In which case the soul is not, and therefore once the body dies, the soul is innocent and cannot be punished.

It's a constant struggle: carnal vs spiritual. The soul that loses its bout gets sent to the basement for a re-education session.

Skip wrote:

sthitapragya wrote: Your soul is sent to earth in a body to avoid sinning but for some reason it cannot and so the soul suffers because it is the body with the five senses that feels the pain which somehow gets transmitted to the soul. Now your body dies. So the eternal soul leaves the body. It no more has the five senses with which to suffer. So how does God judge and punish it?

Psycho-somatic torture. The body-nervous system map image has been imprinted on the soul during its earthly sojourn, so when God points His stylus at the phantom toes, the soul 'feel' the same pain that the body would experience if its toenails were pulled out. This is why sending small children to Hell is so unrewarding: they've had too little time to internalize the somatic map, or experience enough kinds of actual pain to respond appropriately.

Which raises yet another question. If after leaving your body, the soul goes to either heaven or hell for eternity depending upon how it has behaved, how does it get reborn in another body? The eternal burning in hell or the eternal bliss in heaven does not account for reincarnation at all. So if the soul is reincarnated, then obviously it does not go to heaven or hell but goes to purgatory from where it is put in the next body after it's memory has been erased. How is the choice made about who gets to be reborn? one has either sinned or not sinned. Is there something like a little bit of sin which accounts for a second chance? What are those sins?

Lacewing wrote: The people who have beliefs that are at the root of your questions, cannot (of course) answer when there is no logic for them to do so -- and they probably won't even look at or consider such questions, because: A) they cannot allow the dismantling of that which they are completely identified with (for fear of ceasing to be valid or exist); and/or B) the over-arching answer seems to be, "None of that matters because I will believe what I want to believe." It is a demonstration (I think) of the human will to believe the impossible and improbable and illogical... regardless of all else that might be in front of us. We do this in many ways... it's part of the human illusion... but theism seems to make it much more obvious.

Well, so far you seem to right considering the total absence of any explanation from any believer of the soul.

So a soul gets born, goes to the test site called earth, and depending upon what it does on earth, either goes to heaven or hell or purgatory for rebirth and then finally ends up in heaven or hell where either there is eternal bliss or eternal damnation. Is that it? Is that the whole purpose for which God created the world?

Which implies that God basically wanted souls of a particular kind to stay with him and send the others which he didn't like, to hell. So why not just cut out the earth and hell part? He could have simply made designer souls which he would like and moved them to heaven and none of this living and arguing crap would happen. And a hell of a lot of torture could have been prevented.

sthitapragya wrote:Who does God actually punish and judge? Your body dies. Let us assume you have a soul which is eternal. Then it is obvious that your soul gets punished. Which would imply that your body and brain are not responsible for your thoughts and actions but your soul is. We would have to assume that since the soul is eternal, it is definitely more powerful than the body and brain. So the soul controls the brain, which in turn controls the body.

From where are you getting the idea that one dies to experience heaven or hell?

attofishpi wrote:

sthitapragya wrote:Who does God actually punish and judge? Your body dies. Let us assume you have a soul which is eternal. Then it is obvious that your soul gets punished. Which would imply that your body and brain are not responsible for your thoughts and actions but your soul is. We would have to assume that since the soul is eternal, it is definitely more powerful than the body and brain. So the soul controls the brain, which in turn controls the body.

From where are you getting the idea that one dies to experience heaven or hell?

From Christians. Who constantly remind me that I will be judged by God on my death. Attofishpi, you need to understand that I am not arguing with you personally. If you do not believe any of the above then obviously it does not apply to you. The problem with theism is that even within you guys, there are so many different beliefs that it is very difficult to keep count. I am simply addressing what appears to be the majority of believers. If you don't fit in, or you have a different version to give, then give it.

You question suggests that heaven or hell are experienced on earth. Which means you don't believe in heaven or hell outside of earth. Okay. Fine. So what happens to the soul after you die? Unless you don't believe in the soul. Then this does not apply to you.

sthitapragya wrote: If after leaving your body, the soul goes to either heaven or hell for eternity depending upon how it has behaved, how does it get reborn in another body? The eternal burning in hell or the eternal bliss in heaven does not account for reincarnation at all. So if the soul is reincarnated, then obviously it does not go to heaven or hell but goes to purgatory from where it is put in the next body after it's memory has been erased. How is the choice made about who gets to be reborn?

Ah, I see the problem.
Well, then, the ones that are sentenced to heaven or hell don't get recycled; only the ones in purgatory go back, after a good scrubbing, to try again. And that's why new Christians must be conceived and born all the time, even if the mothers have to be coerced. This process, carried into the billions of humans must diminish the soul-stuff supply in pre-creation. (Maybe that's why Mars is no longer inhabited.)
Of course, if the soul comes from God's Own Substance, a large part of Him is already in hell and forever lost.

Is there something like a little bit of sin which accounts for a second chance? What are those sins?

Oh yes! There are categories of sin. The tiny ones are pardoned if you just attempt to look remorseful and say a couple of prayers; little ones might require that give you up sex or meat for a week; bigger ones have to be expiated by kneeling on a stone floor all night or self-flagellation; all the way up to the mortal ones that can't be forgiven.
Alternatively, every soul gets to keep being reborn, living and dying at random, or every soul is put in limbo, or some are sent back as guardian angels to redeem themselves, or we can be ghosts and haunt our relatives - until the End, when the big trumpet sounds and the Judging begins, where we get sorted out once and for all.
Or maybe there is a soul-market every century or so, where the dead of that period are recruited to work in one place or another, or maybe auctioned off to St. Peter and Beealzebub.
I don't have all the inside info - yet.

I am enjoying your answers, Skip! You're being a good sport in cleverly guessing how all of this might work.

Skip wrote:the ones that are sentenced to heaven or hell don't get recycled; only the ones in purgatory go back, after a good scrubbing, to try again. And that's why new Christians must be conceived and born all the time

Has it already been determined in this discussion that the Bible has some bogus information? Because isn't there an occupancy limit for Heaven, stated in the Bible?

Other than attofishpi, the soul believers are very conspicuous by their absence. 69 views so far. I cannot believe all of them are atheists.

Lacewing wrote: Has it already been determined in this discussion that the Bible has some bogus information? Because isn't there an occupancy limit for Heaven, stated in the Bible?

I'm not even sure whether the bible addresses the heaven problem to anyone's satisfaction. In the OT, the heavens are mentioned very often as the sky or firmament - that is, a structural element of Creation. Later on, there are some references to Heaven as a place where God lives with his host or army [?of angels]. Daniel waxed lyrical on the subject, but.

Daniel 7: 26 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

this is more like an earthly kingdom
Amos seemed to think heaven and hell were physical places

Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

For Matthew, it's a kingdom again, where God reigns.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

but he doesn't designate an alternate destination.

So, in order to come up with a coherent story, the scholar-priests must have combed those parchments backwards and forwards. Hence, gret big books of Concordance.

sthitapragya wrote:

attofishpi wrote:

sthitapragya wrote:Who does God actually punish and judge? Your body dies. Let us assume you have a soul which is eternal. Then it is obvious that your soul gets punished. Which would imply that your body and brain are not responsible for your thoughts and actions but your soul is. We would have to assume that since the soul is eternal, it is definitely more powerful than the body and brain. So the soul controls the brain, which in turn controls the body.

From where are you getting the idea that one dies to experience heaven or hell?

From Christians. Who constantly remind me that I will be judged by God on my death.

I'm a Christian - ive experienced both - mostly hell - not a nice position to be in. Heaven is still something on the cards apparently, if i keep my nose clean.

Attofishpi, you need to understand that I am not arguing with you personally. If you do not believe any of the above then obviously it does not apply to you. The problem with theism is that even within you guys, there are so many different beliefs that it is very difficult to keep count. I am simply addressing what appears to be the majority of believers. If you don't fit in, or you have a different version to give, then give it.

I think those that have crossed a major line - eg pedophiles, most murderers rapists are likely to reincarnate as the beast.
Since i have experienced both sides of heaven and hell here on Earth, i believe it is only experienced here on Earth. I believe you are judged at the time of death as to whether you reincarnate or as to what you reincarnate as.

You question suggests that heaven or hell are experienced on earth. Which means you don't believe in heaven or hell outside of earth. Okay. Fine. So what happens to the soul after you die? Unless you don't believe in the soul. Then this does not apply to you.

As above.

attofishpi wrote: I think those that have crossed a major line - eg pedophiles, most murderers rapists are likely to reincarnate as the beast.
Since i have experienced both sides of heaven and hell here on Earth, i believe it is only experienced here on Earth. I believe you are judged at the time of death as to whether you reincarnate or as to what you reincarnate as.

How does this reincarnation affect the soul? If the soul is reincarnated as the beast what problems does it face?