Philosophy Now Forum

Within our universe, everything has a location. E.g. I'm located in the US, the US is on the earth (between certain latitude and longitude), the earth is within our solar system, etc.

When we get to our universe, how do we fix its location? What can we refer to in order that we can fix its location? If we can't fix its location, does it mean our universe doesn't exist? And if it doesn't exist, does it mean that everything that's part of it doesn't exist either? Doesn't existence imply location? What makes the universe different that we can't assign it a location?

PhilX

Philosophy Explorer wrote:Within our universe, everything has a location.

What's the location of the number 3? What's the location of justice?

Just wondering what you mean by saying that everything has a location. Lots of things don't have a location. Where is the location of up? Where is the location of death?

The universe has no location because it is not a place. It is an event.

Obvious Leo wrote:The universe has no location because it is not a place. It is an event.

How do you know it is not a place? Here is a definition of place: "a particular portion of space, whether of definite or indefinite extent" I would say this definition applies to the universe so where in space does it exist? (btw you've previously said the universe has no starting point in time so how can you call it an event?)

PhilX

It is an eternal event and thus needs neither a starting point nor a spatial extension. The spatial extension which we apply to the events we observe within the cosmos are a property of our consciousness and not a property of the universe itself. This is well understood in cognitive neuroscience as well as being basic Kantian philosophy.

Obvious Leo wrote:It is an eternal event and thus needs neither a starting point nor a spatial extension. The spatial extension which we apply to the events we observe within the cosmos are a property of our consciousness and not a property of the universe itself. This is well understood in cognitive neuroscience as well as being basic Kantian philosophy.

Yet other interpretations exist which are consistent with my viewpoints. The definition I gave on place is part of my online dictionary and is consistent with the universe. Now are you saying the universe doesn't exist inside of space? Mainstream scientists do recognize space (although they don't recognize it as being empty).

Here's a definition of event:

"Occurrence happening at a determinable time and place..."

"Determinable time" runs counter to the idea of an "eternal event." The question isn't whether it needs a starting point as the mainstream scientists still are adhering to the BBT. The question is where is our universe in space?

Now we come to the best part. I looked up the definition of universe itself:

"...the totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space..." "Throughout space" so I ask the question again. Where in space is our universe?

PhilX

Philosophy Explorer wrote: so I ask the question again. Where in space is our universe?

You can keep asking this question until man flies to Mars simply by flapping his arms and whistling "Dixie". You'll never get an intelligible answer because it's a meaningless question. Because of your interest in mathematics you of all people should know that a space is a mathematical co-ordinate system and not a physical object. In order to be definable as physically real an entity must have physical properties and be able to do physical work. How the fuck is a mathematical co-ordinate system expected to perform such miraculous feats?

Obvious Leo wrote:

Philosophy Explorer wrote: so I ask the question again. Where in space is our universe?

You can keep asking this question until man flies to Mars simply by flapping his arms and whistling "Dixie". You'll never get an intelligible answer because it's a meaningless question. Because of your interest in mathematics you of all people should know that a space is a mathematical co-ordinate system and not a physical object. In order to be definable as physically real an entity must have physical properties and be able to do physical work. How the fuck is a mathematical co-ordinate system expected to perform such miraculous feats?

You're a tough bugger. What you just related are your assumptions and I say the question is meaningful.

PhilX

I'm a a tough bugger because I'm a philosopher and this is a philosophy forum. What you ask is not a philosophical question but a question of applied mathematics. You won't get an answer in a physics forum either because those buggers are even tougher than I am and would in all likelihood tell you to piss off and ask the philosophers. Perhaps you should look for a single mainstream philosopher who supports the notion of the physicality of the Cartesian space and ask your question of such a person. I've been working in the field of the philosophy of physics for over forty years but unfortunately I have no such name to recommend to you. To my knowledge there has never been a philosopher of science who buys this sort of bullshit so you have a tough journey ahead of you.

That question would require the Cosmography of a multiverse to be defined. Even a civilization in whatever universe immeasurably more advanced would likely avoid a question that can never be resolved.

Good question. Doesn't the universe create its own space as it expands? Where was the singularity when the big bang occurred? When did the big bang occur? Neither of these questions makes any sense because time and space emerged with the bang. Pre-bang is nonsensical because it implies the passage of time. The location of the universe is nonsensical because there is no space beyond it and nothing to use as reference . Our physics only applies within the universe post big bang and pre collapse.

clueless wrote:Good question. Doesn't the universe create its own space as it expands? Where was the singularity when the big bang occurred? When did the big bang occur? Neither of these questions makes any sense because time and space emerged with the bang. Pre-bang is nonsensical because it implies the passage of time. The location of the universe is nonsensical because there is no space beyond it and nothing to use as reference . Our physics only applies within the universe post big bang and pre collapse.

In answer to your first question, the answer is yes. Maybe I should clarify because mainstream physicists say that space is never empty which may surprise a lot of people. But what it's filled up with besides what we observe has never been clarified to me (dark matter? neutrinos?) There are studies and experiments going on so maybe they'll clarify.

Another question is how closely identified is our universe with space? Is it inside of space? The same as space (plus matter and energy)? Is it part of a multiverse? (which would explain the weakness of gravity which could leak out into another universe and would explain certain other mysteries while probably giving our universe a location). Leo would say that the universe has always been around which would theoretically take care of BBT problems, BUT runs counter to evidence that the universe doesn't have an infinite extent in time (the BBT) plus there's no evidence for our universe always having been around (how can there be? There is no infinite clock to measure time with).

I covered a few of the many details to be considered. I'll give you something else to consider which is becoming more and more important and that's entanglement. This means that any two particles, no matter how far apart they are from one another, instantaneously affect one another which also means information can move faster than 186,000 miles/sec., the speed of light in a vacuum. This fact has been confirmed by experiment and there are a number of theories as to how this may happen (e.g. a wormhole).

PhilX

Phil. Every single paradox and counter-intuitive absurdity in physics simply disappears if the mainstream position in philosophy were to be accepted by the science. The Cartesian space is an artefact of the consciousness of the observer of the universe and NOT a property of the universe itself.

Plato answered this question. Because a container cannot contain itself, space is located nowhere, because space is the place where everything is located. Asking where location is located is like asking, "When is time?" or "How big is size?" or "Who is identity?" He also said this weird line, "If it were nowhere, it would be nothing." Or something like that.