Philosophy Now Forum

Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

Perhaps we should start by stating some. I'll go first.

• I have noticed the trending tendency to apply an idea to itself, and then cease to think it through, as if it had been thought through. Seems crazy, right? But I see it all the time, most recently with the Ancient Greek golden aphorism: Moderation In All Things. The person said, "moderation in all things, including moderation," and then went on his way, as if he had never even heard of this time-tested testament to the enduring wisdom of antiquity. (This is an example of a problem pointed out by William James: “Many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.”)

Jaded Sage wrote:Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

Perhaps we should start by stating some. I'll go first.

• I have noticed the trending tendency to apply an idea to itself, and then cease to think it through, as if it had been thought through. Seems crazy, right? But I see it all the time, most recently with the Ancient Greek golden aphorism: Moderation In All Things. The person said, "moderation in all things, including moderation," and then went on his way, as if he had never even heard of this time-tested testament to the enduring wisdom of antiquity. (This is an example of a problem pointed out by William James: “Many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.”)

i can tell you point blank that this isn't something all people, or even most people can do. it's only possible (practically) for a tiny minority of people.

Jaded Sage wrote:Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

Perhaps we should start by stating some. I'll go first.

I'd recommend anthropology.

A good university teaching with the latest post-modernist techniques, can demonstrate that those taken for granted things we like to call truths are not recognised across different human cultures. It teaches to explicate those "foreign" beliefs as if they were 'truths', and this demonstrates the value of relativism and cultural context such that we are able to unpack our own.
By reflection we find ourselves struck from the network of culturally conditioned prejudices and left to accept that our cherished political and social beliefs are not truth at all but noting more than aspirations to be argued for or against.

So taking 'moderation in all things' is false. It can be preserved as an aphoristic aspiration, not to be taken to apply in all cases. Sometimes excess is the only valuable and practical response.

alpha wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

Perhaps we should start by stating some. I'll go first.

• I have noticed the trending tendency to apply an idea to itself, and then cease to think it through, as if it had been thought through. Seems crazy, right? But I see it all the time, most recently with the Ancient Greek golden aphorism: Moderation In All Things. The person said, "moderation in all things, including moderation," and then went on his way, as if he had never even heard of this time-tested testament to the enduring wisdom of antiquity. (This is an example of a problem pointed out by William James: “Many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.”)

i can tell you point blank that this isn't something all people, or even most people can do. it's only possible (practically) for a tiny minority of people.

Really? I must be hanging out in the right crowd, or the wrong crowd, right? Cause I see it everywhere.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

Perhaps we should start by stating some. I'll go first.

I'd recommend anthropology.

A good university teaching with the latest post-modernist techniques, can demonstrate that those taken for granted things we like to call truths are not recognised across different human cultures. It teaches to explicate those "foreign" beliefs as if they were 'truths', and this demonstrates the value of relativism and cultural context such that we are able to unpack our own.
By reflection we find ourselves struck from the network of culturally conditioned prejudices and left to accept that our cherished political and social beliefs are not truth at all but noting more than aspirations to be argued for or against.

So taking 'moderation in all things' is false. It can be preserved as an aphoristic aspiration, not to be taken to apply in all cases. Sometimes excess is the only valuable and practical response.

I feel like you misapplied the example. The focus is on applying an idea to itself. For instance, if we applied the idea of advocating cultural relativity to itself, and said that it itself is merely something relative to our own culture. Wouldn't that undermine the value of everything you just said?

alpha wrote:i can tell you point blank that this isn't something all people, or even most people can do. it's only possible (practically) for a tiny minority of people.

Jaded Sage wrote:Really? I must be hanging out in the right crowd, or the wrong crowd, right? Cause I see it everywhere.

you're lucky. i rarely see it.

alpha wrote:

alpha wrote:i can tell you point blank that this isn't something all people, or even most people can do. it's only possible (practically) for a tiny minority of people.

Jaded Sage wrote:Really? I must be hanging out in the right crowd, or the wrong crowd, right? Cause I see it everywhere.

you're lucky. i rarely see it.

Meh. Not as lucky as you'd think. The difference between people who almost get it right and people who don't even come close to getting it right is negligible. Both are wrong, and the ones who don't even come close are less frustrating, because less is expected of them—it's kinda like how when your friends do something shitty to you it is worse than when an enemy or a stranger does it because of their relationship to you.
I take it you've seen this before. Every. Damn. Time. I always expect more of those who study philosophy, and they always let me down. It hurts every time.

Jaded Sage wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

Perhaps we should start by stating some. I'll go first.

I'd recommend anthropology.

A good university teaching with the latest post-modernist techniques, can demonstrate that those taken for granted things we like to call truths are not recognised across different human cultures. It teaches to explicate those "foreign" beliefs as if they were 'truths', and this demonstrates the value of relativism and cultural context such that we are able to unpack our own.
By reflection we find ourselves struck from the network of culturally conditioned prejudices and left to accept that our cherished political and social beliefs are not truth at all but noting more than aspirations to be argued for or against.

So taking 'moderation in all things' is false. It can be preserved as an aphoristic aspiration, not to be taken to apply in all cases. Sometimes excess is the only valuable and practical response.

I feel like you misapplied the example. The focus is on applying an idea to itself. For instance, if we applied the idea of advocating cultural relativity to itself, and said that it itself is merely something relative to our own culture. Wouldn't that undermine the value of everything you just said?

Can't see how.
Show me how.
Cultural relativism does not undermine truth, it shows it for what it is.

Jaded Sage wrote:Meh. Not as lucky as you'd think. The difference between people who almost get it right and people who don't even come close to getting it right is negligible. Both are wrong, and the ones who don't even come close are less frustrating, because less is expected of them—it's kinda like how when your friends do something shitty to you it is worse than when an enemy or a stranger does it because of their relationship to you.

in theory, i expect less of most people (ignorant), but "living" among such people is no picnic.

Jaded Sage wrote:I take it you've seen this before. Every. Damn. Time. I always expect more of those who study philosophy, and they always let me down. It hurts every time.

most let me down also.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

I feel like you misapplied the example. The focus is on applying an idea to itself. For instance, if we applied the idea of advocating cultural relativity to itself, and said that it itself is merely something relative to our own culture. Wouldn't that undermine the value of everything you just said?

Can't see how.
Show me how.
Cultural relativism does not undermine truth, it shows it for what it is.

But, dude, that is EXACTLY the same sort of thing that every other culture says about their own ideas!

alpha wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:Meh. Not as lucky as you'd think. The difference between people who almost get it right and people who don't even come close to getting it right is negligible. Both are wrong, and the ones who don't even come close are less frustrating, because less is expected of them—it's kinda like how when your friends do something shitty to you it is worse than when an enemy or a stranger does it because of their relationship to you.

in theory, i expect less of most people (ignorant), but "living" among such people is no picnic.

Jaded Sage wrote:I take it you've seen this before. Every. Damn. Time. I always expect more of those who study philosophy, and they always let me down. It hurts every time.

most let me down also.

Nah, living with any of them, near or far, is no picnic.

Jaded Sage wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:Each culture mistakes its beliefs for truths, including our own. How can we see beyond the cultural blinder of ideas that we are convinced are a reality, the ones most obvious to us that we never dream of doubting?

I feel like you misapplied the example. The focus is on applying an idea to itself. For instance, if we applied the idea of advocating cultural relativity to itself, and said that it itself is merely something relative to our own culture. Wouldn't that undermine the value of everything you just said?

Can't see how.
Show me how.
Cultural relativism does not undermine truth, it shows it for what it is.

But, dude, that is EXACTLY the same sort of thing that every other culture says about their own ideas!

The idea of cultural relativism is a method, it makes no specific claims.
Your objective is void, dude.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Cultural relativism does not undermine truth, it shows it for what it is.

The idea of cultural relativism is a method, it makes no specific claims.

The method allows us to make claims, yes? I assume you subscribe to it, and you seem to have used it to make claims. According to you, "it does not undermine the truth" and "it shows the truth for what it is." You seem to be ignoring the fact that you sound like every other culture. I think what I mean to ask is: is relativity relative?

Jaded Sage wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Cultural relativism does not undermine truth, it shows it for what it is.

The idea of cultural relativism is a method, it makes no specific claims.

The method allows us to make claims, yes? I assume you subscribe to it, and you seem to have used it to make claims. According to you, "it does not undermine the truth" and "it shows the truth for what it is." You seem to be ignoring the fact that you sound like every other culture. I think what I mean to ask is: is relativity relative?

The idea of cultural relativism makes no specific claims. Is your brain dead, you sound like everyone else.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Cultural relativism does not undermine truth, it shows it for what it is.

The idea of cultural relativism is a method, it makes no specific claims.

The method allows us to make claims, yes? I assume you subscribe to it, and you seem to have used it to make claims. According to you, "it does not undermine the truth" and "it shows the truth for what it is." You seem to be ignoring the fact that you sound like every other culture. I think what I mean to ask is: is relativity relative?

The idea of cultural relativism makes no specific claims. Is your brain dead, you sound like everyone else.

That isn't what I asked. Not does it make claims, but does it allow us to make claims. There is a difference.