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Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:40 am
by Philosophy Explorer
That's the picture this article is painting which I disagree with. Allowing same-sex marriage I don't equate with an attack on Christianity. I don't see any bans on religion nor any regulation of religion. Getting back to same-sex marriage, this isn't one of the core values of Christianity, even if the Bible says it's a sin (like turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor would be a core value). There are other sins that people aren't held accountable for, but this one seems to bring out more emotion than reason.

The article is: http://www.commdiginews.com/featured/am ... ity-46820/

PhilX

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:23 am
by surreptitious57
Christianity is the dominant belief system in America. And so is very privileged because of it. When privilege is
is questioned then those who are privileged may characterise the opposition in negative terminology. Hence the
reference to war. But America is also a democracy which guarantees its citizens freedom of expression under the
First Amendment. And so those who are not Christian have the right to question the undue influence of that belief
system. The Founding Fathers also guaranteed freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. Something that
the Christian right do not like to be reminded of because it challenges their right to impose their beliefs on to others

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:33 am
by thedoc
surreptitious57 wrote:Christianity is the dominant belief system in America. And so is very privileged because of it. When privilege is
is questioned then those who are privileged may characterise the opposition in negative terminology. Hence the
reference to war. But America is also a democracy which guarantees its citizens freedom of expression under the
First Amendment. And so those who are not Christian have the right to question the undue influence of that belief
system. The Founding Fathers also guaranteed freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. Something that
the Christian right do not like to be reminded of because it challenges their right to impose their beliefs on to others

I brought this point up this last Sunday, and everyone else stated that the founding fathers guaranteed the freedom of religion, in that people were free to choose which religion they wished to follow but that freedom did not include the freedom to not follow any religion. As I was seriously outnumbered (me against everyone else) I didn't push the issue, but I do believe that freedom from religion was part of the original intent.

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:50 am
by Philosophy Explorer
thedoc wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:Christianity is the dominant belief system in America. And so is very privileged because of it. When privilege is
is questioned then those who are privileged may characterise the opposition in negative terminology. Hence the
reference to war. But America is also a democracy which guarantees its citizens freedom of expression under the
First Amendment. And so those who are not Christian have the right to question the undue influence of that belief
system. The Founding Fathers also guaranteed freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. Something that
the Christian right do not like to be reminded of because it challenges their right to impose their beliefs on to others

I brought this point up this last Sunday, and everyone else stated that the founding fathers guaranteed the freedom of religion, in that people were free to choose which religion they wished to follow but that freedom did not include the freedom to not follow any religion. As I was seriously outnumbered (me against everyone else) I didn't push the issue, but I do believe that freedom from religion was part of the original intent.
I'm not so sure about that Doc. Some of the Founding Fathers were Masons and mason symbols are part of US currency.

PhilX

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:54 am
by thedoc
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
thedoc wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:Christianity is the dominant belief system in America. And so is very privileged because of it. When privilege is
is questioned then those who are privileged may characterise the opposition in negative terminology. Hence the
reference to war. But America is also a democracy which guarantees its citizens freedom of expression under the
First Amendment. And so those who are not Christian have the right to question the undue influence of that belief
system. The Founding Fathers also guaranteed freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. Something that
the Christian right do not like to be reminded of because it challenges their right to impose their beliefs on to others

I brought this point up this last Sunday, and everyone else stated that the founding fathers guaranteed the freedom of religion, in that people were free to choose which religion they wished to follow but that freedom did not include the freedom to not follow any religion. As I was seriously outnumbered (me against everyone else) I didn't push the issue, but I do believe that freedom from religion was part of the original intent.
I'm not so sure about that Doc. Some of the Founding Fathers were Masons and mason symbols are part of US currency.

PhilX
The Masons connection to Christianity has been questioned in the past, I'm not sure how closely the beliefs coincide, since I have only passing familiarity with the Masons.

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:03 am
by surreptitious57
If one has the freedom to think whatever they want long as it does not impact upon others then it logically
follows that they have the equal freedom to not think whatever they want as well. As you cannot have one
without the other. I think that the First Amendment acknowledges this more than the Founding Fathers did

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:06 am
by Obvious Leo
What has same-sex marriage got to with religion? If you think marrying a person of the same sex is wrong then don't do it. I've heard no suggestion that it should be made compulsory.

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:17 am
by Philosophy Explorer
This much is clear about Mason belief:

"Freemasonry and God. In order to be a Mason, a candidate 'must believe in the existence of a Supreme Being,' as the Grand Lodge of New Mexico, for example, states for candidates of the Entered Apprentice (first) degree."

There doesn't seem to be a clear link between Masons and Christians. But there's no question there is an underlying religious belief for the Masons. I don't recall any evidence showing the US Government acting upon any religious beliefs throughout its history, either for or against any religious group.

PhilX

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:27 am
by Philosophy Explorer
Obvious Leo wrote:What has same-sex marriage got to with religion? If you think marrying a person of the same sex is wrong then don't do it. I've heard no suggestion that it should be made compulsory.
It's supposed to be a sin according to the Christian bible.
There is also pedophilia which upsets many people, but not a sin according to the Bible, but same-sex marriage/love is said to be a sin according to the Bible.

What do you mean by that it should be made compulsory?

PhilX

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:47 am
by Obvious Leo
Philosophy Explorer wrote: What do you mean by that it should be made compulsory?
I'm saying the opposite. My understanding of the same-sex marriage debate is that it's nobody's business who you marry, Phil, and the state should have no say in the matter. What the fuck has this got to do with sin? if you think it's a sin to marry a person of the same sex then don't do it. I think it's a sin not to finish a bottle of wine once I've opened it but I don't reckon this personal opinion should be enforceable by law!!.

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:03 am
by Dalek Prime
Live your religion. But for fuck's sake, don't expect me to do it for you, ya lazy shit. :roll: :lol:

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:12 am
by vegetariantaxidermy
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:What has same-sex marriage got to with religion? If you think marrying a person of the same sex is wrong then don't do it. I've heard no suggestion that it should be made compulsory.
It's supposed to be a sin according to the Christian bible.
There is also pedophilia which upsets many people, but not a sin according to the Bible, but same-sex marriage/love is said to be a sin according to the Bible.

What do you mean by that it should be made compulsory?

PhilX
Where does it say in the New Testament that you can't have same-sex marriage? God people worry about stupid things. Who gives a fuck who marries who? Someone can marry their goat for all I care, as long as the goat is ok with it.

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:28 am
by Dalek Prime
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:What has same-sex marriage got to with religion? If you think marrying a person of the same sex is wrong then don't do it. I've heard no suggestion that it should be made compulsory.
It's supposed to be a sin according to the Christian bible.
There is also pedophilia which upsets many people, but not a sin according to the Bible, but same-sex marriage/love is said to be a sin according to the Bible.

What do you mean by that it should be made compulsory?

PhilX
Where does it say in the New Testament that you can't have same-sex marriage? God people worry about stupid things. Who gives a fuck who marries who? Someone can marry their goat for all I care, as long as the goat is ok with it.
The goat can't reasonably consent. Two humans can.

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:06 am
by Obvious Leo
Dalek Prime wrote:The goat can't reasonably consent. Two humans can.
You beat me to it, Dalek. One of the political figures in the debate here tried to use this "thin end of the wedge argument" against same-sex marriage. Next thing we'll have people marrying their sheep etc. (In New Zealand they don't bother with the church and the paperwork). As far as I'm concerned the informed consent point which you make immediately puts such a specious argument to the sword. Heterosexual marriage and same-sex marriage should also both be unlawful if one of the parties is deemed incapable of giving informed consent.

Re: Is there a war on US Christians?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:02 pm
by Gustav Bjornstrand
The 'founding fathers' of the American republic were religiously-oriented men - each one - down to their marrow. But then so was the age that produced them. The foundation of the American republic is so entirely bound up with religious and theological ideals that America can be thought of as a religious republic. It was designed in that way. That intention was part of the reasoning and the vision to establish it. To understand the foundational aspect of religion - obviously Christianity - at the base of Americanism see Robert Bellah and his notion of 'American civil religion'.

The notion of 'separation of church and state' and certainly the Establishment Clause, have to do, originally, with a fear that a Federal authority would establish some form of national church, and thus impose a specific creed or branch of Christianity and religion on the States. But it would be absurd and counter-factual to make a supposition (unless of course one were under the spell of recent political correct notions) that the Founders desired a Republic free of religion, of religious values, and of specifically Christian religion and values. It would amount to a revisionist statement and it would be, therefor, a form of lie.

It would be fair to say though that the Christian belief of the Founders was not a monolith, and that each of them, expressing the various levels of revolution in thinking occurring, began to conceive of religiousness in different, perhaps non-conventional is the right word, ways Jefferson selected from the NT a group of ideas and ideals that he distinguished from the OT and more Jewish (unenlightened, to him) matrix out of which Christianity rose. There is much that can be said of the religiousness, and the religious conception (and the metaphysical conceptions) of the Founding generation yet it would be thoroughly false to say they were not religious, were not interested in supporting and inculcating religious and specifically Christian ideals, or that they desired a Republic free of religious practice. This is a recent spin, and serves modernist purposes, and especially those with origins in Marxian ideology which, quite naturally, attack foundations in order to impose new foundational tenets.

It would - obviously! - have been inconceivable to a late 18th Century mind to think on or propose a 'marriage' between two men or two women. I think it safe to say that it would fall in the realm of 'unthinkable thought'. To that mind, the only conceivable union was the fruitful union of a man and a woman. This is no-brain material. It does not require much pondering.

But lately, and for reasons that can be traced, and ideology that can be defined, presented, explained (and also critiqued), it has become 'necessary' to de-define male-female union as the sole conceivable union. How this came about, and the evolution in ideas that allows/produces it, is conversable, but it involves contentious definitions, polemics based in those definitions, and a foray into 'the culture wars'.

In American politics, the result of a Federal 'putsch' and the ascendency of the Federal power resulting from the American Civil War has ensconced both 'conservative' trends and also more 'radical' trends as strange bedfellows. To understand judicial radicalism, though, requires backtracking through these former events. And of course it all requires an examination of the influence of 'radical liberalism' on and in the fabric of the modern American republic.

The thinking tendencies of a man such as Thomas Paine - I would argue - and possibly too Emerson and Whitman (and others) - would I think eventually incline toward the notion that a marriage is about 'love' and any person can choose to define who they 'love'. There are indeed 'seeds of radicalism' in the thinking of the Founders and that generation of intellects. However, I think it is a good idea to remember that the American Republic was established on classically conservative notions, as compared to the French Republic and it revolution which was far more radical in conception and intention.