Philosophy Now Forum

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fac ... eck_latest

Is Obama right about guns?
The claim:
“This type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries.”
US President Barack Obama, 18 June 2015

I love it that CH4 News tries to get behind any political spin and digs deeper.

Had Obama included the words "not as often" instead of implying "never", his point would remain and it wouldn't be so easily deflected into a sterile discussion of those exceedingly rare occasions when something similar has happened in Europe or elsewhere.

mickthinks wrote:Had Obama included the words "not as often" instead of implying "never", his point would remain and it wouldn't be so easily deflected into a sterile discussion of those exceedingly rare occasions when something similar has happened in Europe or elsewhere.

'[Obama] added: “At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency.”

The qualified 'with this kind of frequency' perhaps addresses your objection. However, even tacking this on at the end sounded a bit lame.
Perhaps the guy is tired...of not getting through...of being 'powerless' ? What chance then, the rest of the population...without real information and open debate...

marjoram_blues wrote:

mickthinks wrote:Had Obama included the words "not as often" instead of implying "never", his point would remain and it wouldn't be so easily deflected into a sterile discussion of those exceedingly rare occasions when something similar has happened in Europe or elsewhere.

'[Obama] added: “At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency.”

The qualified 'with this kind of frequency' perhaps addresses your objection. However, even tacking this on at the end sounded a bit lame.
Perhaps the guy is tired...of not getting through...of being 'powerless' ? What chance then, the rest of the population...without real information and open debate...

It's true. Nuance in language has never been a strong point of Americans. It's all or nothing here more often than not. "Not as often" means "sometimes" which means "always" to some American ears.

Most Americans do not weigh the pros and cons. If someone shouts preemptive war in order 'to keep the country safe", it's taken as a fact. Hardly anyone ever thinks they might be wrong. No one ever thinks, that poking the hornet's nest might produce more stings than not poking a hornet's nest. Hardly anyone ever thinks that more Guns will equal more gun violence.

In fact, most American's, including my sis and mom, believe that having armed security (or teachers ) at schools would make the children safer.
No one ever stops to think that the more guns at school means more chances of some nut going on a shooting spree.

There are too many variables for numbers to mean anything.

No one ever stops to think that the more guns at school means more chances of some nut going on a shooting spree.

The not-thinking goes both ways. There are at least 2 occasions when having quick access to a gun prevented a shooting spree on a school campus. Also, the media generally don't report times when having a gun saves lives because it would conflict with their liberal (read "big brother") agenda.

... it would conflict with [the media's] liberal (read "big brother") agenda.

The media in the US, even more than here in Europe, is overwhelmingly conservative, dude! Only a right-wing nut could think they are all "liberal".

Or maybe you are just visiting planet Earth?

The Inglorious One wrote:There are too many variables for numbers to mean anything.

No one ever stops to think that the more guns at school means more chances of some nut going on a shooting spree.

The not-thinking goes both ways. There are at least 2 occasions when having quick access to a gun prevented a shooting spree on a school campus. Also, the media generally don't report times when having a gun saves lives because it would conflict with their liberal (read "big brother") agenda.

You are not being rational. Put your ideology aside for a moment and think. Which scenario do you think would be more likely to have more gun violence. A country where guns are legal or a country where guns are illegal? Obviously, common sense will tell you that a country where guns are not legal would have less gun related shootings. Less guns means less chance of gun violence. The same reasoning would apply to schools. The less guns the less chance gun violence will be an issue.

That doesn't mean it won't ever be an issue. It simply means that the probability of being shot is less in areas with no guns. duh.

There is always some dumb fuck with a gun who gives it to a kid for shits and giggles at a gun range or show, now times that in every school across America. That's not even accounting for all the mentally unbalanced people who would be wielding a gun on campus. Doesn't it stand to reason not every person with a gun is a good guy?

Jesus christ...I can't believe I am actually having to break it down for you. This is what I hate about republicans...mother fuckers can't think for themselves...

Sorry everyone, I am just sick of these stupid rednecks...I just can't take it anymore. I am not as nice as I used to be...

The Inglorious One wrote:There are too many variables for numbers to mean anything.

No one ever stops to think that the more guns at school means more chances of some nut going on a shooting spree.

The not-thinking goes both ways. There are at least 2 occasions when having quick access to a gun prevented a shooting spree on a school campus. Also, the media generally don't report times when having a gun saves lives because it would conflict with their liberal (read "big brother") agenda.

What, a gun save someone from someone else with a gun?

artisticsolution wrote:

The Inglorious One wrote:There are too many variables for numbers to mean anything.

No one ever stops to think that the more guns at school means more chances of some nut going on a shooting spree.

The not-thinking goes both ways. There are at least 2 occasions when having quick access to a gun prevented a shooting spree on a school campus. Also, the media generally don't report times when having a gun saves lives because it would conflict with their liberal (read "big brother") agenda.

You are not being rational. Put your ideology aside for a moment and think. Which scenario do you think would be more likely to have more gun violence. A country where guns are legal or a country where guns are illegal? Obviously, common sense will tell you that a country where guns are not legal would have less gun related shootings. Less guns means less chance of gun violence. The same reasoning would apply to schools. The less guns the less chance gun violence will be an issue.

That doesn't mean it won't ever be an issue. It simply means that the probability of being shot is less in areas with no guns. duh.

There is always some dumb fuck with a gun who gives it to a kid for shits and giggles at a gun range or show, now times that in every school across America. That's not even accounting for all the mentally unbalanced people who would be wielding a gun on campus. Doesn't it stand to reason not every person with a gun is a good guy?

Jesus christ...I can't believe I am actually having to break it down for you. This is what I hate about republicans...mother fuckers can't think for themselves...

Sorry everyone, I am just sick of these stupid rednecks...I just can't take it anymore. I am not as nice as I used to be...

I believe Canada has high gun ownership but very little murder. Different mind-set, more mature and reasonable population....

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I believe Canada has high gun ownership but very little murder. Different mind-set, more mature and reasonable population....

Still I am sure a country with more guns has more gun related incidents than a country that has fewer guns. Not to mention that meaness is coming for them too...as I don't think anyone can walk on water forever...

artisticsolution wrote: You are not being rational. Put your ideology aside for a moment and think. Which scenario do you think would be more likely to have more gun violence. A country where guns are legal or a country where guns are illegal? Obviously, common sense will tell you that a country where guns are not legal would have less gun related shootings. Less guns means less chance of gun violence. The same reasoning would apply to schools. The less guns the less chance gun violence will be an issue.

That doesn't mean it won't ever be an issue. It simply means that the probability of being shot is less in areas with no guns. duh.

There is always some dumb fuck with a gun who gives it to a kid for shits and giggles at a gun range or show, now times that in every school across America. That's not even accounting for all the mentally unbalanced people who would be wielding a gun on campus. Doesn't it stand to reason not every person with a gun is a good guy?

Jesus christ...I can't believe I am actually having to break it down for you. This is what I hate about republicans...mother fuckers can't think for themselves...

Sorry everyone, I am just sick of these stupid rednecks...I just can't take it anymore. I am not as nice as I used to be...

Typical liberal ideology: anyone who disagrees is stupid, ignorant, immature, hateful, an ideologue or just plain evil.

I suggest that you read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. If you can't read, I suggest instead that you right for some free help.

The Inglorious One wrote:Typical liberal ideology: anyone who disagrees is stupid, ignorant, immature, hateful, an ideologue or just plain evil.

I suggest that you read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. If you can't read, I suggest instead that you right for some free help.

Let me ask you this, where do you think more beer is consumed, in a bar or in a library? Use your fucking head.

artisticsolution wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I believe Canada has high gun ownership but very little murder. Different mind-set, more mature and reasonable population....

Still I am sure a country with more guns has more gun related incidents than a country that has fewer guns. Not to mention that meaness is coming for them too...as I don't think anyone can walk on water forever...

But Americans are idiots. I wouldn't entrust an American with a gun, any more than I would a child.

The Inglorious One wrote:

artisticsolution wrote: You are not being rational. Put your ideology aside for a moment and think. Which scenario do you think would be more likely to have more gun violence. A country where guns are legal or a country where guns are illegal? Obviously, common sense will tell you that a country where guns are not legal would have less gun related shootings. Less guns means less chance of gun violence. The same reasoning would apply to schools. The less guns the less chance gun violence will be an issue.

That doesn't mean it won't ever be an issue. It simply means that the probability of being shot is less in areas with no guns. duh.

There is always some dumb fuck with a gun who gives it to a kid for shits and giggles at a gun range or show, now times that in every school across America. That's not even accounting for all the mentally unbalanced people who would be wielding a gun on campus. Doesn't it stand to reason not every person with a gun is a good guy?

Jesus christ...I can't believe I am actually having to break it down for you. This is what I hate about republicans...mother fuckers can't think for themselves...

Sorry everyone, I am just sick of these stupid rednecks...I just can't take it anymore. I am not as nice as I used to be...

Typical liberal ideology: anyone who disagrees is stupid, ignorant, immature, hateful, an ideologue or just plain evil.

I suggest that you read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. If you can't read, I suggest instead that you right for some free help.

Because that's always the case. If you are not liberal then that means you are against free speech, against equal rights....In other words it means you are a redneck moron. Look up the word liberal, idiot. It's impossible to be intelligent and right-wing--it's a contradiction in terms.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

artisticsolution wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I believe Canada has high gun ownership but very little murder. Different mind-set, more mature and reasonable population....

Still I am sure a country with more guns has more gun related incidents than a country that has fewer guns. Not to mention that meaness is coming for them too...as I don't think anyone can walk on water forever...

But Americans are idiots. I wouldn't entrust an American with a gun, any more than I would a child.

Well, I will leave you to your prejudice. I am an American, although, I must admit, I would not trust myself with a gun...which is why I don't own one. lol
However, there are a few Americans I know personally that I would trust to own a gun.

btw...my issue is not with gun ownership per se ...it is with dishonest stupid people who fucking won't admit the truth because of their ideology.