Philosophy Now Forum

This is for believers in the christian religion -- if there are any on this forum.

If 'god' created the universe then 'he' must have existed before. Where was 'he', what was 'he' doing? If 'he' did exist forever before, how come 'he' wasn't bored out of 'his' mind with nothing to look at and no one to talk to for zillions of millenniums? If there was no 'before' the creation, then how could a 'god' create time (simultaneously with the universe) when the concept of 'creation' demands a 'before'?

Second question:

If we define the 'universe' as the totality of everything that exists and has ever existed, then, by definition, it must include 'god' if 'he' exists. Then how could a 'god' that wasn't created yet with the universe, be created by the 'god' who had not existed yet?

Even if you are not a believer, but you know how believers would answer, please feel free to contribute.

I need this input for a research I am doing for my next book.

Looking forward to enlightening replies.

I am not a believer but answers I have seen or ones I used myself were
Logic is a tool of Satan used to disprove or deny the existence of God
God exists outside of time and space and always has and always will
It is not for us to understand the mind of God for we simply cannot

Question: What do they mean by "outside of time"?

They mean that he is not restricted by the laws of physics in the same way that everything else is
This makes perfect sense if God is defined as metaphysical which he usually is. Though on a more
scientific level there can be no such thing as outside of time for it does not need anything else in
order for it to exist. And so to be outside of it is a meaningless phrase when it is put into context

OK, my next question: how do they know that god exists 'outside of time'?

If I try to explain these answers to an intelligent teenager, (s)he will want to know that, because (s)he was taught in school that (s)he needs to cite the source of every factual statement. Anyone can make up any claims and we would want to know how they know it is true?

The simple answer is that they do not know. No one does. For there is precisely zero evidence for
the existence of God. And subjective reasoning is no substitute for objective truth. And neither is
it the same. Since arguments from emotion are logical fallacies and as such are invalid by default

Perfectly good answer, however, a believer (whom I hoped would reply) would not admit that.

I am writing a book on the source of religious faith and I was hoping that intelligent believers would try to answer my question.

Are there no christians on this forum who could explain the source of their faith?

Ned wrote:Perfectly good answer, however, a believer (whom I hoped would reply) would not admit that.

I am writing a book on the source of religious faith and I was hoping that intelligent believers would try to answer my question.

Are there no christians on this forum who could explain the source of their faith?

A good place to start with this would be with Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" argument. There is an important theological link. This is the genesis of the idea you are referencing,

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

Ned wrote:This is for believers in the christian religion -- if there are any on this forum.

If 'god' created the universe then 'he' must have existed before. Where was 'he', what was 'he' doing? If 'he' did exist forever before, how come 'he' wasn't bored out of 'his' mind with nothing to look at and no one to talk to for zillions of millenniums? If there was no 'before' the creation, then how could a 'god' create time (simultaneously with the universe) when the concept of 'creation' demands a 'before'?

Second question:

If we define the 'universe' as the totality of everything that exists and has ever existed, then, by definition, it must include 'god' if 'he' exists. Then how could a 'god' that wasn't created yet with the universe, be created by the 'god' who had not existed yet?

Even if you are not a believer, but you know how believers would answer, please feel free to contribute.

I need this input for a research I am doing for my next book.

Looking forward to enlightening replies.

I think the answers given by surreptitious57 and Ginkgo are good, but I will address your comment about God existing for zillions of millenniums with nothing to do. Just as we have no answer for what was happening before the Big Bang there are no answers as to what God might have been doing, but there is no reason to assume that God was doing nothing. There is a theory of cyclic universes that hold that there have been an infinite regression of Universes that preceded the one that exists now. The usual objection is that the universes must have started sometime in the past, but that is only counter-intuitive to our human understanding and there is no reason to expect that the universe or universes will conform to human expectations and understanding. Perhaps this universe is just a minor diversion to what God was doing, that we have no knowledge of. Also I would suggest that God exists in eternity, where there is no passing of time as we know it, at least that is my assumption. BTW, I do consider myself a believer. Your use of the masculine pronoun "he" might be just a bit out of date as many believers that I am familiar with regard God as being all genders or no gender. The use of "he" relates to the references in the Bible that was written by and for a patriarchal society, presumably our current society is slightly more advanced that that one.

If 'god' created the universe then 'he' must have existed before. Where was 'he', what was 'he' doing?

Hi there: I'm a Theist, if you hadn't guessed. Yep, one of those...a real one.

Can I try and help you with your book?

You've got it backward in the question. "Where" is a feature of the universe, so far as we know; so is "time". God is the explanation for the existence of space-time, so it would not be rationally correct to posit a duty to occupy space or fill time.

As for what He was "doing" we have very little Biblical revelation of those facts, and since the answer would not make reference to space, time or pre-existing objects (i.e. "doing,") there is every reason to doubt we could even understand that answer if we had it.

Whatever else is obvious, you're going to have to get your head outside of space-time to ask the right question.

This problem is also manifest in your second question:

If we define the 'universe' as the totality of everything that exists and has ever existed, then, by definition, it must include 'god'

Now you've defined God as an item in the set of things called "universe." But God is not describable that way. He's not one of the many items IN the universe, but the First Cause of all those things, and of the universe itself; and if you force another definition on it, then you've let at least the Christians and Jews off the hook -- since, to coin the old response, they don't believe in the 'god' you don't believe in either!

Your questions don't actually challenge Theistic faith, therefore, since they do not take as their premises the predicates that Theists actually hold about God. I fear you're talking past them, about secondary, creation-dependent "gods," not about the Monotheistic God concept. And the danger for you, then, is that your questions will fail to be challenging at all, since they don't challenge what the Theist actually believes, and instead challenge a sort of Zeus conception of gods...for Zeus was said to be just such a secondary, created 'god.'

thedoc, Immanuel, thank you both for the detailed reply -- exactly what I had been hoping for (from intelligent believers).

I genuinely, sincerely, wish to understand what sustains faith in believers, without any visible (for me) evidence?

I am a theoretical physicist and I can't think any other way than by following the fundamental rules of critical thinking:

1. Exactly what is it that we know?
2. Exactly how do we know it?
3. What are the sources, the reliability and the limits of our knowledge?

In addition, for me, the words we are using have to be defined by the following rules:

The definition has to:

1./ be based on observed and verified phenomena
2./ it can not be circular (containing references to itself)
3./ it has to be placed in the context of existing human knowledge
4./ it can not use undefined words/concepts
5./ it cannot contain contradictions

With these caveats, is it possible to explain to my intelligent teenager, who wants to know, exactly how do you know all the explanations in your posts and all the statements that you made regarding 'god'?

PS. Just to prove that I do have an open mind, here is a quote from my last published book: "Humane Physics":

"Bottom line: am I an atheist? If the word ‘atheist’ means that I am absolutely certain, beyond even a shadow of a doubt that there is no such thing as a ‘god’, then I am not an atheist. No self-respecting scientist can be 100% certain of anything in the universe. Only probabilities exist in science and I admit, for lack of evidence to the contrary, that I assign an extremely low probability to the idea of a creator. However, nothing is proven one way or another. Yes, the universe could have been created by a god or any number of gods. Life and evolution could have been started on Earth by an alien culture of superhuman power and we would not know anything about it. However, all the established religions with which I am familiar are so obviously man-made that I find it difficult to believe that anyone could take any of them seriously. Charles de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu said: “If triangles had a god, he would have three sides”.

Out back...

Ned wrote:This is for believers in the christian religion -- if there are any on this forum.

Not a Xian believer, but I'll give it a shot.

Ned wrote:If 'god' created the universe then 'he' must have existed before. Where was 'he', what was 'he' doing? If 'he' did exist forever before, how come 'he' wasn't bored out of 'his' mind with nothing to look at and no one to talk to for zillions of millenniums? If there was no 'before' the creation, then how could a 'god' create time (simultaneously with the universe) when the concept of 'creation' demands a 'before'?

creatio ex nihilo; Creation out of nothing. Nothing means no "where," "when," etc. God, as the non-contingent ground of all being, defines the "where" and "when." Not the reverse. So it's nonsensical (on the Xian view) to speak of God being "somewhere" or "some-when" before Creation. There was God, God created, then there were wheres and whens and whats. A little tough to wrap the mind around, but it makes sense on logical grounds (e.g. in the absence "place," where?" is a nonsensical question).

Ned wrote:If we define the 'universe' as the totality of everything that exists and has ever existed, then, by definition, it must include 'god' if 'he' exists. Then how could a 'god' that wasn't created yet with the universe, be created by the 'god' who had not existed yet?

That would not be the definition a Xian would use (or at least should use). The universe would be defined as all of space-time. Since God is the ground of space-time, God necessarily exists independent of it. That is to say, God creates space-time (the universe), not the reverse.

Ned wrote:Even if you are not a believer, but you know how believers would answer, please feel free to contribute.

Oh good, lol.



As an aside, it's worth noting that lots of Xians (perhaps even the majority) would not answer this way. It is, however, the traditionally orthodox position of Xian thinkers, etc. Just like with any religion, the vast majority of laypeople really don't know the finer points of the tradition.

Ned wrote:thedoc, Immanuel, thank you both for the detailed reply -- exactly what I had been hoping for (from intelligent believers).

I genuinely, sincerely, wish to understand what sustains faith in believers, without any visible (for me) evidence?

I will attempt to address one of your comments. I would first suggest that God is an intelligent and thinking being, intelligent way beyond human capacity, obviously, and thinking in ways that humans would not grasp. That being said, each person will receive whatever evidence is needed for them to believe, but not everyone will accept that evidence. Some people don't need any thing at all, some will only get a little, just enough, and some will reject everything. For myself, I had an experience many years ago, that, on consideration, could only have been the Holy Spirit effecting several individuals. And if the Holy Spirit exists, then God exists as well. I know that if I were to describe it skeptics would offer some rational explanation, so I will let it go for now. That is what carries me along in the face of what appears to be a complete lack of evidence, however there have been coincidences that seem hard to explain without resorting to God's existence and intervention, even if very subtle. I saw a TV show once that included this line, "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous." I would also suggest that experiences, like the one I had, was for those who witnessed it, and not necessarily for anyone else. I would also suggest that God is big enough to provide as many experiences as necessary to whoever needed it, and would keep trying when someone rejected it each time.

As an aside, I have heard the argument by those trying to disprove God that why should God pay attention to humans when God has the whole Universe to deal with. Or how can God possibly pay attention to everything, but those people are just putting human limits on God and denying that God could be more than humans could imagine.

ReliStuPhD wrote: As an aside, it's worth noting that lots of Xians (perhaps even the majority) would not answer this way. It is, however, the traditionally orthodox position of Xian thinkers, etc. Just like with any religion, the vast majority of laypeople really don't know the finer points of the tradition.

Based on my conversations with other Christians, I would agree with this.