Philosophy Now Forum

Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.

Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?

Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?

Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?

Regards
DL

Yes, lucifer was wrong, as he did not demand equal rights, he wanted to lead. But he was not the Creator.

David Handeye wrote:Yes, lucifer was wrong, as he did not demand equal rights, he wanted to lead. But he was not the Creator.

So you aspire to live in a tyranny when you die.

Is that what you would vote for here as well?

Is a tyranny the best form of government?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:

David Handeye wrote:Yes, lucifer was wrong, as he did not demand equal rights, he wanted to lead. But he was not the Creator.

So you aspire to live in a tyranny when you die.

Is that what you would vote for here as well?

Is a tyranny the best form of government?

Regards
DL

This is not the point. The point is that lucifer was not demanding equal rights, he wanted to be the leader.
In Heaven, there wasn't tyranny, there was harmony.

No in fact he was spot on, and God was wrong. Absolutely wrong, and in so many ways God should answer for but can not. Satan had every right to do what he did, and God had no right to refuse him.

Lucifer should have had the right to demand leadership. no tyranny is fair no God who espouses it could ever be, and is hence an immoral and self righteous God if he expects humans to observe his own self rightrousness without also being self righteous. If God could and would be humble we should care, as it is he is a dictator who forces his will on people to the extent that it pains him to even let people have their own will, in the whole of creation. He even killed his own son because he hated the idea we should be free. That is a God who punishes freedom with nothing more than anger and hate, that is no real message to send. If God loves anyone but himself he should let people be free, he should not place conditions on it such that he will wipe all people off the Earth, or if you do not follow me I will condemn you to hell, this is the act of a child and a childish person who cannot stand anyone but his own will- if they do not obey his mandate, they suffer, this is not an all loving God this is a hate riddled God. Nothing God does in The Bible is anything more than self righteousness, and no message that is imperial and without contention should ever be followed by any moral person. No God if not a fair one, in fact he is worse than Satan, at least Satan had a will to defy mindless and absolute authority, anyone who is rational should. If God wanted to teach anyone anything he only taught them to breed hate and war in his name, this God is no God of love. Killing his only begotten son because he had to, is nothing more than the act of a calous and hateful father. If he got the message right in the first place it would never be necessary. The Bible is a tome of genocide and war. Of course one could contend God did not mean it that way, but then God is perfect, how the hell could he mess anything up like that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70IAwHTzrHI

I have a lot of sympathy for the Devil he seems the only rational person in heaven. Although if it's all the same I wont follow him either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HPlwSlkfdw

Greatest I am wrote:Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.

Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?

Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?

Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?

Regards
DL

What do the gnostics tell you to believe?

When are people going to understand that Satan, False Prophet and Beast are merely allegorical devices as explained in "The Ouzo Prophecy" at http://church-of-ouzo.com/pdf/ouzo-prophecy.pdf.

The nobility of Satan's defiance is a calamitous misunderstanding. Perpetuated most obviously by Milton's Paradise Lost. If the tyrannical story is taken at face value, then I would agree with Blaggard's response. However I think the essential purpose of the myth is not a commentary on the hierarchy of power, but rather a call to understand a truth. Namely, that our lives should be grounded in God (or love, or eternity) through faithful commitment. Living un-harmoniously and with selfish greed is the path to perdition. And not in some torturous afterlife, but in the corrupt condition of the heart.

But the corrupt condition of the hearth is just satan's intent, not exclusively for some afterlife, rather for real life, which is satan's ground. For this, there is nothing of noble in lucifer's defiance, neither mythical nor pedagogical, on the contrary it's an immoral act of arrogance, immoral because he rebelled against his Creator, and then because he's obviously a coward, as he's a deceiver: his only trick is that of an alleged individual liberty, falling in a social relativism. But really that's not liberty, it's vice, depravation, moral turpitude, nothing else than slavery concealed of liberty.

David Handeye wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

David Handeye wrote:Yes, lucifer was wrong, as he did not demand equal rights, he wanted to lead. But he was not the Creator.

So you aspire to live in a tyranny when you die.

Is that what you would vote for here as well?

Is a tyranny the best form of government?

Regards
DL

This is not the point. The point is that lucifer was not demanding equal rights, he wanted to be the leader.
In Heaven, there wasn't tyranny, there was harmony.

Not for a full third of the heavenly host.

If our leaders decided to deny anyone else leadership, would you say you would be in harmony with such a policy?

Regards
DL

Blaggard wrote:No in fact he was spot on, and God was wrong. Absolutely wrong, and in so many ways God should answer for but can not. Satan had every right to do what he did, and God had no right to refuse him.

Lucifer should have had the right to demand leadership. no tyranny is fair no God who espouses it could ever be, and is hence an immoral and self righteous God if he expects humans to observe his own self rightrousness without also being self righteous. If God could and would be humble we should care, as it is he is a dictator who forces his will on people to the extent that it pains him to even let people have their own will, in the whole of creation. He even killed his own son because he hated the idea we should be free. That is a God who punishes freedom with nothing more than anger and hate, that is no real message to send. If God loves anyone but himself he should let people be free, he should not place conditions on it such that he will wipe all people off the Earth, or if you do not follow me I will condemn you to hell, this is the act of a child and a childish person who cannot stand anyone but his own will- if they do not obey his mandate, they suffer, this is not an all loving God this is a hate riddled God. Nothing God does in The Bible is anything more than self righteousness, and no message that is imperial and without contention should ever be followed by any moral person. No God if not a fair one, in fact he is worse than Satan, at least Satan had a will to defy mindless and absolute authority, anyone who is rational should. If God wanted to teach anyone anything he only taught them to breed hate and war in his name, this God is no God of love. Killing his only begotten son because he had to, is nothing more than the act of a calous and hateful father. If he got the message right in the first place it would never be necessary. The Bible is a tome of genocide and war. Of course one could contend God did not mean it that way, but then God is perfect, how the hell could he mess anything up like that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70IAwHTzrHI

I have a lot of sympathy for the Devil he seems the only rational person in heaven. Although if it's all the same I wont follow him either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HPlwSlkfdw

Thanks for all this. Well put.

I have one comment before checking your links.

"Absolutely wrong, and in so many ways God should answer for but can not."

I think we can make God answer for his evil ways.

All we all need to do is reject him. All moral people will and that does not seem to be Christians who adore those evil ways.

Yet they call others Satanists.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: Not for a full third of the heavenly host.

If our leaders decided to deny anyone else leadership, would you say you would be in harmony with such a policy?

Regards
DL

You continue to ask for something else, not honestly. I repeat, lucifer DID NOT DEMAND EQUAL RIGHTS. HE JUST WANTED TO BE THE ONLY LEADER.
Now, this is real tyranny, just rebelling against constituted order.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.

Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?

Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?

Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?

Regards
DL

What do the gnostics tell you to believe?

We are Universalists and do not believe in hell or Satan.

From God's POV, we are all culpable of following our natures, and God cannot see that as evil and so does not condemn us for it.

If God had to condemn even one of us, he would have to condemn all of us as we all helped make that person what he or she was. If you follow all the interactions, you see we all contribute to what we all are, --- so God cannot treat any of us differently not legitimately condemn anyone.

Not even Satan as she also is created from the conditions created by her environment which would include God himself. To condemn her, I say her thanks to the Vatican art, God would have to condemn himself.

Regards
DL

bobevenson wrote:When are people going to understand that Satan, False Prophet and Beast are merely allegorical devices as explained in "The Ouzo Prophecy" at http://church-of-ouzo.com/pdf/ouzo-prophecy.pdf.

No argument but I wanted to discuss this with literalists. They are the sick who need healing.

Regards
DL

David Handeye wrote:

Greatest I am wrote: Not for a full third of the heavenly host.

If our leaders decided to deny anyone else leadership, would you say you would be in harmony with such a policy?

Regards
DL

You continue to ask for something else, not honestly. I repeat, lucifer DID NOT DEMAND EQUAL RIGHTS. HE JUST WANTED TO BE THE ONLY LEADER.
Now, this is real tyranny, just rebelling against constituted order.

She wanted your God who also " JUST WANTED TO BE THE ONLY LEADER" to end his tyranny and allow a vote.

I ask again.

If our leaders decided to deny anyone else leadership, would you say you would be in harmony with such a policy?

Regards
DL