Philosophy Now Forum

Next Tuesday I will attend the monthly meeting of the American Chesterton Society at the University Club. The reading to be discussed is THE GREAT HERESIES by Hilaire Belloc.

What I found interesting was Belloc’s contention that a permanent power of Islam is its unconvertibility. The missionary efforts over 400 years of the Catholic orders wholly failed to convert the Mohammedans.

This comment is interesting in light of President Obama’s purported conversion from Islam to Christianity.
http://www.chesterton.org
http://www.universityclubofstpaul.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Heresies-Hi ... B00ISCT35K

Madre de dios, that is going to be a bit of grind. At least bring a smoke and a pancake. :S

Seriously though having played Devil's advocate in favour of Islam, I think it needs a hug these days.

I heard a joke about Lawyers. "90% of the lawyers are giving the other 10% a bad name."

I assume the relevant quote is

Hilaire Belloc wrote:The missionary efforts made by great Catholic orders which have been occupied in trying to turn Mohammedans into Christians for nearly 400 years have everywhere wholly failed. We have in some places driven the Mohammedan master out and freed his Christian subjects from Mohammedan control, but we have had hardly any effect in converting individual Mohammedans....

I guess it depends on what "hardly any effect" means. If it's that only a small percentage convert, that's little more than a truism concerning religion in general. Conversation is relatively rare in the world's "great religions." This is unfortunately indicative of the grasping-at-straws-ness of early-20th century pontification concerning Islam: interesting, but ultimately uninformed.

ReliStuPhD wrote:I assume the relevant quote is

Hilaire Belloc wrote:The missionary efforts made by great Catholic orders which have been occupied in trying to turn Mohammedans into Christians for nearly 400 years have everywhere wholly failed. We have in some places driven the Mohammedan master out and freed his Christian subjects from Mohammedan control, but we have had hardly any effect in converting individual Mohammedans....

I guess it depends on what "hardly any effect" means. If it's that only a small percentage convert, that's little more than a truism concerning religion in general. Conversation is relatively rare in the world's "great religions." This is unfortunately indicative of the grasping-at-straws-ness of early-20th century pontification concerning Islam: interesting, but ultimately uninformed.

You are correct regarding the quote.
But, does Islam contain an unconvertibility element that is absent from other religions?
And, if so, what is that element?

tbieter wrote:But, does Islam contain an unconvertibility element that is absent from other religions?

Belloc liked to think so and, I'm guessing, so do you.

tbieter wrote:Next Tuesday I will attend the monthly meeting of the American Chesterton Society at the University Club. The reading to be discussed is THE GREAT HERESIES by Hilaire Belloc.

What I found interesting was Belloc’s contention that a permanent power of Islam is its unconvertibility. The missionary efforts over 400 years of the Catholic orders wholly failed to convert the Mohammedans.

This comment is interesting in light of President Obama’s purported conversion from Islam to Christianity.
http://www.chesterton.org
http://www.universityclubofstpaul.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Heresies-Hi ... B00ISCT35K

They did not take a leaf out of Moulay Ishmail's book. He used to take his white slaves, and threaten to drop them in a vat of quicklime, which would flail their skin from their bodies if they refused to convert.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/411475.White_Gold

tbieter wrote:

ReliStuPhD wrote:I assume the relevant quote is

Hilaire Belloc wrote:The missionary efforts made by great Catholic orders which have been occupied in trying to turn Mohammedans into Christians for nearly 400 years have everywhere wholly failed. We have in some places driven the Mohammedan master out and freed his Christian subjects from Mohammedan control, but we have had hardly any effect in converting individual Mohammedans....

I guess it depends on what "hardly any effect" means. If it's that only a small percentage convert, that's little more than a truism concerning religion in general. Conversation is relatively rare in the world's "great religions." This is unfortunately indicative of the grasping-at-straws-ness of early-20th century pontification concerning Islam: interesting, but ultimately uninformed.

You are correct regarding the quote.
But, does Islam contain an unconvertibility element that is absent from other religions?
And, if so, what is that element?

Islam considers itself the most evolved of the 3 Abrahamic religions; being formed of the most recent "coming" of the Messiah.
Like a Christian converting down to Judaism, a Muslim would see converting to Christianity as a downwards step.
This status of Islam is part and parcel of its ideology, and has Christianity accepts Moses; Islam accepts Moses AND Jesus as prophets.

So to convert to Christianity you would have to denounce Mohammed. Going from Christianity to Islam no denial of Jesus is necessary.


I think this is the sort of Idea you'd need to pursue to answer your question.

That Jesus Christ is God, is one of the major tenets of Christianity. Both Judaism and Islam acknowledge Jesus as a teacher or prophet but deny that he is god, in fact most of the Christian Creed is about Jesus as a member of the trinity. To convert between Judaism and Islam, there is little change in the status of Jesus but for a Christian to convert to either is a major denial of the divinity of Jesus, and for the other religions to convert to ?Christianity, is to accept the divinity of Jesus. This is a major change in belief that dose not happen between Islam and Judaism. Likewise the status of Mohamed would change little between the religions, he could be accepted as a prophet without much trouble.

thedoc wrote:That Jesus Christ is God, is one of the major tenets of Christianity.

Wrong.
Many Christians sects regard Jesus as human.
Until the council of Nicaea nearly all Christians regarded him as a man.
Any christian can abandon his creed on the simple understanding that Mohammed has surpassed Jesus in his claim to divinity, without dismissing Jesus.
Going the other way- you have to reject Mohammed.

There are three classes of belief in Christianity which reject the divinity of jesus.
Arianism
Socinianism
Unitarianism.

You forgot existentialists and philosophers who are thinking hard. And those at the Niceane council because it was a long way from nice and short hop to human nature, who were exterminated almost before they got there, The Nag Hamadi will tell you more about heresy than a smoke and a pancake, look it up.

The Nag Hammadi Library, a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts, was discovered in upper Egypt in 1945. This immensely important discovery includes a large number of primary "Gnostic Gospels" -- texts once thought to have been entirely destroyed during the early Christian struggle to define "orthodoxy" -- scriptures such as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, and the Gospel of Truth.

And whilst your waxing lyrical on something you know nothing about, as do I, wax on wax off.

Memes are silly unless they mean something...

Gnosticism, look that up too while you are at it.

You're not the pope mate, and neither am I, hubris is dangerous when mixed without humility. In short know thyself, your quirks even your mad mind, before you know others, I don't but the patronising thing is there are no stupid questions...

Your mum considers you the most evolved human beings, but the evolution never devolves, but we can make exceptions. Think on...

Blaggard wrote:You forgot existentialists and philosophers who are thinking hard. And those at the Niceane council because it was a long way from nice and short hop to human nature, who were exterminated almost before they got there, The Nag Hamadi will tell you more about heresy than a smoke and a pancake, look it up.

The Nag Hammadi Library, a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts, was discovered in upper Egypt in 1945. This immensely important discovery includes a large number of primary "Gnostic Gospels" -- texts once thought to have been entirely destroyed during the early Christian struggle to define "orthodoxy" -- scriptures such as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, and the Gospel of Truth.

And whilst your waxing lyrical on something you know nothing about, as do I, wax on wax off.

Memes are silly unless they mean something...

Gnosticism, look that up too while you are at it.

You're not the pope mate, and neither am I, hubris is dangerous when mixed without humility. In short know thyself, your quirks even your mad mind, before you know others, I don't but the patronising thing is there are no stupid questions...

Your mum considers you the most evolved human beings, but the evolution never devolves, but we can make exceptions. Think on...

Have you ever thought about trying to make your posts relevant to the thread?

Lev Muishkin wrote:

thedoc wrote:That Jesus Christ is God, is one of the major tenets of Christianity.

Wrong.
Many Christians sects regard Jesus as human.
Until the council of Nicaea nearly all Christians regarded him as a man.
Any christian can abandon his creed on the simple understanding that Mohammed has surpassed Jesus in his claim to divinity, without dismissing Jesus.
Going the other way- you have to reject Mohammed.

Yes, and my Church regards Jesus as a human along with most other denominations that I am familiar with, so what's the problem? It's only Atheists with no understanding or imagination who see this as a problem, not Christians and other religious people. Atheists are only using it to attack Christianity, something they don't understand. Mohammed is not considered divine by Islam, Mohammed is a prophet, the last and to them as important as Jesus. Also Islam considers Jesus as the "Messiah to be" and therefore more important than Mohammed.

Lev Muishkin wrote: Have you ever thought about trying to make your posts relevant to the thread?

Have you ever thought about making your's relevant to anything, perhaps like the real world?