Philosophy Now Forum

as a girl who does martial arts there is one form of sexism that i encounter pretty much every class

when sparring with men - or even boys - they are unwilling to use as much force as they would with a man

not just unwilling - pretty much psychologically unable

this reduces the quality of the sparring for me . Its a bit annoying at times


recently I got into an argument about how bad this sort of sexism is

i dont think its that bad. i think it is kind of sweet.

i think violence against women is a far worse problem than unwillingness to commit even practice violence against women

complaining about one sparring partners who do this seems to be another instance of a first world problem


the womens' studies major i was talking to about this insists that this sort of behavior in itself a form of violence against women and that the same men privately have no problem beating their wives

another girl agreed that this is not as bad as willingless to commit violence but got upset at my view that as problems go this one is trivial - and in particular at my characterization of this behavior as gentlemanly and sweet

either i or those girls are crazy

sorry the women's studies major is a woman. the word 'girls' is sexist, apparently.

thoughts?

I don't know what sort of martial art you do, but in most competition, you pit peer against peer. You don't generally put a heavy weight in the ring against a fly weight, for instance. It is sexist to assume that a woman is less of an opponent just because she is a woman, but the perception is that that is the case and the guys reluctant to thump you may be holding back because you haven't proved them wrong. Being gentlemanly is all very noble, but I'm sure you can find some blokes who respect you enough to clobber you as hard as you clobber them. It's an odd thing to wish, but I wish you luck.

i did kendo for a while then krav maga and now doing mma cause there is no krav maga in my neck of the woods

if I insisted on sparring partners my size I would not be getting much in the way of sparring partners

and you are right, it would make no sense for me to fight them in the competition, but sparring is fine

men who have been doing martial arts for a while often are a bit more willing to use full force against a girl

men who have no such inhibitions to start with generally do not make for good sparring partners for anyone, in my experience

Hi Kayla;

Kayla wrote:as a girl who does martial arts there is one form of sexism that i encounter pretty much every class
when sparring with men - or even boys - they are unwilling to use as much force as they would with a man
not just unwilling - pretty much psychologically unable
this reduces the quality of the sparring for me . Its a bit annoying at times

I don't know a great deal about martial arts, but I have raised some boys. It is pretty much accepted that in most mammal species, the male is physically stronger than the female. So little boys are often taught that they might punch their male friend, who might punch them back, and that this can be acceptable under some circumstances. It can even be a form of male bonding. But it is not acceptable to bond with a female by punching her lights out. So I can see where a male could be "psychologically unable" if they experienced a normal kind of childhood.

Most men will hold back when dealing physically with someone younger, less experienced, or weaker -- and females are regarded as weaker. My husband used to wrestle with the kids, and as they grew older and stronger, his responses grew appropriately. The children hurt him -- sharp elbows and knees can hurt -- a lot more often than he hurt them. This was not that much different than other training, but he had the opportunity to gage their strength on a regular basis as they grew. I suspect that your sparring partners do not have the opportunity to gage your strength as well as you would prefer.

It is my understanding that control is a major component in martial arts. What if you looked to the more mature sparring partners, ones who have exquisite control, and explained your problem? Maybe you could get some of them to slowly ratchet up their responses to give you a better training session.

Kayla wrote:recently I got into an argument about how bad this sort of sexism is
i dont think its that bad. i think it is kind of sweet.
i think violence against women is a far worse problem than unwillingness to commit even practice violence against women

I agree with you.

Kayla wrote:the womens' studies major i was talking to about this insists that this sort of behavior in itself a form of violence against women and that the same men privately have no problem beating their wives

The underlined part of your statement is one of the most generally inclusive, prejudiced, and biased statements that I have ever read. I wonder how that "womens' studies major" justifies spouting that kind of crap.

Everyone talks about violence against women; but what about violence against men? I'll give you an example: I knew a young couple, who were in their early 20's, living together, but not yet married. They planned to marry. She was on birth control, but wanted to go off of it and get pregnant; he thought it would be best to wait till they were married -- it was a standing argument.

He had started a new job that was physically very demanding; she did not work out of the house. He came home one day tired, hungry, and sore to find that there was no dinner being made. She had spent the whole day working up new arguments to support her idea of getting pregnant, and started in on him as soon as he walked in the door. After a few minutes, he told her that he would not discuss it, and was going to lay down on the couch until dinner was ready. She walked into the kitchen, got a glass of milk, and then poured it over his head while he was resting on the couch. He got up and put his foot in her ass shoving her out of the room. She called the police; he was arrested.

The argument was not illegal, pouring milk over his head was not illegal, but putting his foot in her ass was domestic violence against women, even though the only thing bruised was her pride. If I had been there and witnessed that, I would have beaten that stupid bitch's ass, and would not have been arrested, even if I caused damage. It would have been considered a mutually agreed fight between two women, and not illegal. Of course, she would never have acted like that if there were witnesses, and he probably would not have let me beat her.

I worked in law for years and can assure you that there is a reason why the word, vicious, is associated more with women than it is with men. In the county next to mine, they had a big problem with domestic violence and decided that it had to be curbed. So they started a new policy; when a call came in, the police would go to the house and take both parties to jail for a few days to cool off. The second offence would land them both in jail for a week along with a hefty fine. She learned to control her tongue; he learned to control his fists, and domestic violence rates cut in half within the first year in that county.

There are some men, who are just plain mean. There are some women, who are just plain mean. But I suspect that the high rates of domestic violence in the US are more attributable to social ignorance and bad laws.

Kayla wrote:another girl agreed that this is not as bad as willingless to commit violence but got upset at my view that as problems go this one is trivial - and in particular at my characterization of this behavior as gentlemanly and sweet
either i or those girls are crazy
thoughts?

You are just fine. "Those girls" are a little nucking futs.

Gee

Gee wrote:Most men will hold back when dealing physically with someone younger, less experienced, or weaker -- and females are regarded as weaker.

teenage boys whose asses i could probably kick if they used their full strength have a problem using their full strength against girls

It is my understanding that control is a major component in martial arts. What if you looked to the more mature sparring partners, ones who have exquisite control, and explained your problem? Maybe you could get some of them to slowly ratchet up their responses to give you a better training session.

some men are aware of this and will try to not do this. some can ignore the gender of their sparring partner - although it is more difficult for them to do so against a girl as opposed to a woman their own age.

frustrating as it is, my sparring partners will often see me not just as a female but as a child

this is not a good thing but i am puzzled by the outrage it causes in some people

if the worst manifestation of sexism was unwillingness to use full strength when sparring with girls i would be very happy

Everyone talks about violence against women; but what about violence against men?

my understanding is that when it comes to ordinary physical fights, the girls are not much better than the guys when it comes to intimate partner violence

there are guys who think nothing of slapping around their wife or girlfriend

unfortunately there are also girls who are more than willing to take advantage of their man's inhibitions against hitting girls

where guys do come out a lot worse is when it comes to fights that cause serious injury or death

The argument was not illegal, pouring milk over his head was not illegal

i would have thought that it is assault, although perhaps not the kind that the police can be bothered with

Kayla wrote:as a girl who does martial arts there is one form of sexism that i encounter pretty much every class

when sparring with men - or even boys - they are unwilling to use as much force as they would with a man

Given that typical women are on average 20-30% lower than me, between a half and a third of my weight, I have very good reasons for doing so.

I'm so tall and heavy that when I practised with a former captain of some American team competing in international tournaments of some martial art (can't remember which), the guy was gonna use me as an example to show off some trick. I just stood there and he had real problems moving me xD I was like a huge rock to him. That was fun.

Anyways, the point is, I've been told all my life that I'm too big and too heavy and have to be very careful about my movements. A hit with my MY HIPS would literally send you across the classroom! I can even do that to people of my own weight xD

A punch from my fist might not knock you down even though I don't have the technique for that, but given you are of typical height and weight for a girl, it would certainly feel like being hit with some very powerful force, sending you way off backwards. It got nothing to do with sexism, and all to do with the practical features. I pretty much do the same for skinny small men or boys.

You'd have to be of about the same height and weight class to be able to make an argument of sexist behaviour. I'm all for hitting women with the equal force of men, if they are just big and heavy enough! xD

you may have missed my point somewhat

there are men (or more often boys) roughly my size and strength - i am actually undersized even for a girl

and when sparring they will get it with more force than i will

so there is sexism

i do not see this form of sexism as a major problem but that is a separate issue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8wxwqtRgSk

Honest martial arts, like this perhaps?

I know what you mean though, there's no way an England fan is going to be taken down by any of that Jackie Chan bollocks, any more than a female martial artist is going to be taken down by a light fisted "fairy". I hope you find a decent male sparring partner. I agree it is a form of sexism, when I was doing martial arts and sparring it seemed innately trained in me to go easier on the girls, even though I would try not to.

I think though tbh, if martial arts was really that honest any woman, would probably snap a guys arm in seconds, and leave him crying on the deck for an ambulance. Martial arts in your local dojo or whatever, it's real life light. Martial arts are generally for protection, real martial arts are generally for killing or subduing in seconds without weapons, at least most of them. I guess you have to learn to say that what you are doing is learning a defense, not how it might be used if your life depended on it, and you wanted to drive a guys nose into his brain or his balls into his abdomen. IRL you could reduce a man or woman to tears just by hitting a pressure point, but you don't in martial arts as such. Much as being pandered to by guys are the same to a woman, martial arts is not how it would be used if you really wanted to harm someone physically, so it's all fake. If you see my point.