Philosophy Now Forum

Simple question. Doesn't really need a whole load of philosophical exegesis, Im sure many people are perfectly capable of applying that anyway so wax on, the thread title, vis a vis morality and ethics. Yes it's a metaphor, no I don't think I need to dumb it down, I am am pretty sure you all know how to interpret it. So have at the thread title in whatever way you might.

I think it's a general philosophy because it's too broad, although if the mods want to move it to ethical philosophy I have no problem with that.

"Consider God's handiwork; who could straighten what he hath made crooked?"

Eclisiastes 7:13.

And no it's not a religious thread per se, nor a scientific one per se, nor even a philosophical one per se although if you'll fogive my impudence I think that is where it belongs; I think that quote has pertinence to the moral debate so...

And no it is not a trick question either, nor is it meant to be amazing in it's insight and so on so with that in mind, and that grammatical error or two accounted for...

There are many insects I'm willing to help if it doesn't require much effort.

The common housefly isn't among them. Indeed, I'll go to great efforts to kill insects that plague man or cause disease. I've slaughtered countless millions of mosquitos and their larvae and invented a system to do it. I allow water to stagnate in a hollowed tree stump or a specially made sump in a creek and when it starts teeming with larvae I empty it out onto the ground or shovel it onto the bank.

A very literal interpretation. Are you perhaps unable to grasp metaphor, because it's not a problem. I can dumb it down so that it makes more philosophical sense to those with autism, Aspergers or what not, if you don't have that my apologies, but it was an actual metaphor about human on human morality so...

Sorry that sounded patronising, and I am sure you were being ironic, but then so was I.

Suffice to say I am well aware that the biggest killer on Earth animal wise, has been mosquitos specifically of the Culcidae familly, specifically those who spread malaria, but that was not the thrust of my gist.

Genetic resistance
Main article: Genetic resistance to malaria

According to a 2005 review, due to the high levels of mortality and morbidity caused by malaria—especially the P. falciparum species—it has placed the greatest selective pressure on the human genome in recent history. Several genetic factors provide some resistance to it including sickle cell trait, thalassaemia traits, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, and the absence of Duffy antigens on red blood cells.[34][35]

The impact of sickle cell trait on malaria immunity illustrates some of the evolutionary trade-offs that have occurred because of endemic malaria. Sickle cell trait causes a defect in the hemoglobin molecule in the blood. Instead of retaining the biconcave shape of a normal red blood cell, the modified hemoglobin S molecule causes the cell to sickle or distort into a curved shape. Due to the sickle shape, the molecule is not as effective in taking or releasing oxygen. Infection causes red cells to sickle more, and so they are removed from circulation sooner. This reduces the frequency with which malaria parasites complete their life cycle in the cell. Individuals who are homozygous (with two copies of the abnormal hemoglobin beta allele) have sickle-cell anaemia, while those who are heterozygous (with one abnormal allele and one normal allele) experience resistance to malaria. Although the shorter life expectancy for those with the homozygous condition would not sustain the trait's survival, the trait is preserved because of the benefits provided by the heterozygous form.[35][36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria

Interesting genetics, but if we could keep to flies of a "higher" order.

I am extremely literal. I find much communication incomprehensible.

I guess I don't know what this thread is about.

I'm confident God screwed up much of creation and part of our job is to fix it.

Of course the reality is that creation wouldn't be so bad except for mans' interference.

cladking wrote:I am extremely literal. I find much communication incomprehensible.

I guess I don't know what this thread is about.

That's cool, last thing I wanted to do was stifle discussion, just wanted to be clear.

No worries mate, just part of the dialogue and process of a discussion, on the internet, it's hard to tell what people mean, so it's all gravy, hope that explains it though.

Feel free to wax on in your own way, it's not like you were being deliberately literal for the sake of x. So as I already said wax on if you want to.

I've reflexively helped more insects out of water containers they fell into (etc circumstances) than I'd care to remember. Especially as I've gotten older and felt the weight of my own mortality and impending doom. Figger its probably related to Deckard's explanation of Roy Baty's unexpected act toward the end of Bladerunner....

[Deckard falls, Roy catches him.]

Roy: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die.

Deckard (Voice-over): I don't know why he saved my life. Maybe in those last moments he loved life more than he ever had before. Not just his life, anybody's life, my life. All he'd wanted were the same answers the rest of us want. Where did I come from? Where am I going? How long have I got? All I could do was sit there and watch him die.

I'm reminded of the story about the people who nursed a stranded baby seal back to life. After much effort and fanfare, they released it into its natural habitat, where it was promptly gobbled up by an orca.

hammock wrote:I've reflexively helped more insects out of water containers they fell into (etc circumstances) than I'd care to remember. Especially as I've gotten older and felt the weight of my own mortality and impending doom. Figger its probably related to Deckard's explanation of Roy Baty's unexpected act toward the end of Bladerunner....

[Deckard falls, Roy catches him.]

Roy: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die.

Deckard (Voice-over): I don't know why he saved my life. Maybe in those last moments he loved life more than he ever had before. Not just his life, anybody's life, my life. All he'd wanted were the same answers the rest of us want. Where did I come from? Where am I going? How long have I got? All I could do was sit there and watch him die.

Have you read the book btw: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? It is called, by P.K.Dick on which the movie was based; I recommend it, whilst the film is of course magnificent, one of my top 10 movies of all time and it's always been in the top 5, , the book would add a different perspective, and one that might be useful to you?

I think it's nearing the point where it will be free now, but it's a short book, and cheap as chips so...

Phillip K. Dick had one weird imaganitation though, I have to say...

Total Recall was written by him, as was The Minority Report, as was The Adjustment Bureau, as was probably half a dozen of the movies you have seen in the last 20 or 30 years, assuming you are that old.

Wyman wrote:I'm reminded of the story about the people who nursed a stranded baby seal back to life. After much effort and fanfare, they released it into its natural habitat, where it was promptly gobbled up by an orca.

Orca's are a species of dolphin believe it or not. Ever read So Long And Thanks For All the Fish by Douglas Adams the 4th book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy, the last one was Mostly Harmless.

I would hurt a fly and no I wouldn't help one other than to put it out of pain.

I would hurt a human and yes I would also help one but it would depend upon the context.

Arising_uk wrote:I would hurt a fly and no I wouldn't help one other than to put it out of pain.

I would hurt a human and yes I would also help one but it would depend upon the context.

Yes that was the point, and what context would you consider is also more the point?

Blaggard wrote:Yes that was the point, and what context would you consider is also more the point?

I would hurt someone if they were a threat to me and mine or if they were a threat to one I considered innocent of their violent attentions and I could actually make a difference. I would help someone if I could and it would assist them as long as it was no major threat to me and mine and that my help could actually make a difference.

Arising_uk wrote:

Blaggard wrote:Yes that was the point, and what context would you consider is also more the point?

I would hurt someone if they were a threat to me and mine or if they were a threat to one I considered innocent of their violent attentions and I could actually make a difference. I would help someone if I could and it would assist them as long as it was no major threat to me and mine and that my help could actually make a difference.

That's pretty much the definition of the more "normal" social animal, or at least most people in modern society for whatever reason, but at least the threads moving forward.

I'm not asking what you would personally do more about morality in general, what people do in general and I am sure you have seen so many examples that me showing you any would seem superfluous. But yes we would all do what you do unless we had some social disorder that prevented us or held some moral conviction which would prohibit us, that is of course what I was driving at. I'll list a couple for the sake of "argument": antisocial personality disorder, also known as psychopathy, Autism and Aspergers, both can manifest in severely restricted social cohesion, although more usually they don't and are merely something people have and learn to get over by using learned EQ responses, if not understanding clearly emotions knowing what is apposite within that thing we call social interaction, especially in the more Aspergers spectrum of autism. Narcissistic personality disorder, often resulting in extreme behavioral processes, and sometimes, but not always a result of ADHD, ADD or other emotional problems, which may or may not of been learned.

Yeah, I know all these disorders probably leave you cold, after all it's kind of an excuse isn't it, in a way, particularly those who are present from birth like psychopathy and are caused by genetics, or to be more specific in the case of psychopathy a malformation or malfunction in brain development in the pre frontal cerebral cortex cause by a genetic disorder that floods that region with inapt chemicals leaving it if not dysfunctional, retarded from normal development.

Are we turning into apologists for bad behavior I tend to think so. is this a good thing, I think not. I suppose the big question is now we know more than we did before, what we do about it, if anything?

Prefrontal Cortex

In mammalian brain anatomy, the prefrontal cortex (PFC) is the thick outer layer (cerebral cortex) of the prefrontal lobe (the front portion of the frontal lobe). The PFC contains Brodmann's areas 9, 10, 11, 12, 46, and 47.

This brain region has been implicated in planning complex cognitive behavior, personality expression, decision making, and moderating social behavior.[1] The basic activity of this brain region is considered to be orchestration of thoughts and actions in accordance with internal goals.[2] Destruction of the anterior two-thirds results in deficits in concentration, orientation, abstracting ability, judgment, and problem solving ability; destruction of the orbital (frontal) lobe results in inappropriate social behavior.

The most typical psychological term for functions carried out by the prefrontal cortex area is executive function. Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social "control" (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially unacceptable outcomes).

Many authors have indicated an integral link between a person's personality and the functions of the prefrontal cortex.[3]

Frontal cortex supports concrete rule learning. More anterior regions along the rostro-caudal axis of frontal cortex support rule learning at higher levels of abstraction. Badre, Neuron 66:315 2010

Necessary post I think to explain if not the philosophy, the science and where it is at. Two very different hings of course but nonetheless should of course be explained within context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

hammock wrote:I've reflexively helped more insects out of water containers they fell into (etc circumstances) than I'd care to remember. Especially as I've gotten older and felt the weight of my own mortality and impending doom. Figger its probably related to Deckard's explanation of Roy Baty's unexpected act toward the end of Bladerunner....

[Deckard falls, Roy catches him.]

Roy: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die.

Deckard (Voice-over): I don't know why he saved my life. Maybe in those last moments he loved life more than he ever had before. Not just his life, anybody's life, my life. All he'd wanted were the same answers the rest of us want. Where did I come from? Where am I going? How long have I got? All I could do was sit there and watch him die.

Kinda forgot this, but to add: in the book, Decker walks in and shoots the leader of the Androids in the head killing him instantly. There's none of the moral searching in the film at the end that is played out in the dialouge in and of itself, although there is plenty amongst the characters all through the book in spades; what it does do though is exploring the deeper side of what it means to be human; in the book because it's post apocalypse ie supposedly some nuclear war or such or melt down of society or whatever, most people don't own animals, in fact to own one is a status symbol, as you can see in the film it's a dark world under a cloud.

But the point of the Electric sheep in the title is far more subtle than that, humans dream can androids, humans use counting sheep to drift away, can androids do the same, if they can why are they any different from humans, and this is the very subtle point. Decker has a pet, one he barely notices, he uses it in the same way humans do maybe not now but if they had something as expensive, as a bit of a status symbol, he never feeds it, it's a wonder it is not dead, but it lives next door to an "actual human" with the same pet: it's a replicated pet, of course as is his neighbours, there are virtually no existent non human species. But then again the author makes a very subtle point about how Decker thinks and this is echoed throughout in very subtle ways that you won't always pick up on. Which is why no doubt it's worth reading it again like any good novel.

For example, there is a whole chapter where Decker is brought in for questioning because they all think he is a replicant. The books is a lot deeper and more complex and explores many more themes than the film. That said, I don't think the directors took too many liberties, it's still ultimately the same story whichever Directors cut you watched.

Think about this though the replicant hunter, hunting supposedly Deckard keeps leaving little origami figures all of over the place, the last he finds, is when he flees the planet with a replicant named Rachael, (something bought up more in the sequel novel), and incidentally Rachael is someone it took almost 3 hours to establish as a replicant so let that bake your noodle.

The last animal though, what is it, do you remember, that is of course the genius of P.K.Dick, and something you only get alluded to in the film.

"Too bad she wont live, but then again who does?"

The last quote in the movie before IIRC the sublime music by Vangellis plays out.

Was the book better than the film, yes probably, was the film a masterpiece, definitely.

On a side point and not meaning to fiver the thread, as they say, or mad up that, as they also say in the coloquial language one may know if one is from the South of my country. This thread is about something not to do with this thread but I think I get the sentiment:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13179

Just a side bar:

Mind you I am on almost everyone's ignore list by now which is of course fine by me by the way, and don't think that is the means to the end on exploring morality in this thread, it speaks for itself, such trite points are irrelllevant; soooo I don't expect anyone to read anything I post, care about anything I say, or take the time to think about it, actually do anything but vacuously exist in some bubble; which is important in a way and really does touch deeply on the subject matter at hand, but is not intrinsic to it of course, in fact that's kinda extrinsic: no one will care about what I say, reply to, or even read that is more intrinsic, the point is made none the less; isn't that the wonderful thing about human thought though, ignorant self obsessed cunts are actually making points without even trying, which is of course the point and of course a very subtle dig at people in general, which they wont read, understand or even care about...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1KWyvL9ous

Hard day?

Thinking is of course hard. Thinking about things you might be upset about is of course hard, the morality of that is of course hard. Hence the human race.

By the way not getting at anyone on this forum or thread, it's just a general point I have noticed about people in general.

Hammock wrote:

I've reflexively helped more insects out of water containers they fell into (etc circumstances) than I'd care to remember.

I dont kill flies, spiders, ants, if they are in the house I catch them and take them outside.

When I visit the pet store, to buy for my various dogs, cats, birds, fish, I buy the crickets, that will ultimately be used for food for reptiles and such.

I take them home and release them into my garden. You should see them fly into the brush. Let me outta here!

Sounds weird, I know, but in summertime, I am rewarded by their chirping.

When I worked with the Buddhist Monks, I noticed they would walk carefully around the ants on the pavement.