Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:07 pm**

Happy Easter everyone! I hope I am posting this in the right place--if not, I apologize.

I feel like I should introduce myself briefly as this is my first post. My name is Zach and I am a sophomore at a small place called Crown College. I have worked with an online gaming ministry, Soldiers of Christ, for some 8 years now, so I am familiar with some of the meandering currents of the internet ocean--some people are willing to have a discussion, others are not. But fortunately, I hope this will be a pretty tame, yet still enlightening discussion.

I am currently working on a research project for college that includes these questions. But try not to think of this as research--I won't include any of your real names, but it really would help me if you could answer these as honestly as you can. If you do not feel comfortable answering these questions in public, you can also pm me.

In summary, I would love to open up honest conversations about some of these questions! While I am directing this at non-believers, I would welcome other Christians to interact with this topic as well. Here are the questions:

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

Thank you all! I am excited to see where this will lead.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:34 am**

Hi Zach,

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

Raised Catholic, converted to surfing as a teen, and worship nature in general now.

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

I don't believe or disbelieve, but embrace my ignorance on the subject. What I do believe is that the reality of my ignorance is of more value to me than any fantasy knowing I might embrace or invent.

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God?

Same as above.

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

Same as above.

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

A highly charismatic figure, the most influential teacher of love in the Western world.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

Authority structures. Lack of revolutionary energy.

Thank you all! I am excited to see where this will lead.

Ok, I hope it works out for you. On most philosophy forums what you should probably expect most often are ardent attacks upon Christianity and religion in general. Just a word of warning, in case you are new to this realm.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:13 am**

Thank you so much, Felasco. And I agree with you a million times over about the problems with the church today. The authority structures are generally broken (And mostly unBiblical) and there really is a lack of energy overall. I have been theorizing for some time that the number one enemy of Christianity in America is apathy. It is appalling, but not all of us are like that!

Ok, I hope it works out for you. On most philosophy forums what you should probably expect most often are ardent attacks upon Christianity and religion in general. Just a word of warning, in case you are new to this realm.

I am familiar, but thank you. I actually posted this same thread over at atheistforums.com and got quite the lively discussion. In some ways I empathize with the vitriol towards religion--it has hurt a lot of people. But I do wish people could see past the stereotypes and be open for a respectful dialogue.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:02 am**

SB Leader wrote:-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

C of E primary school, sang in the choir once, still remember a couple of stories from morning assembly, no memory of ever believing in a god and only go to church to welcome, unite or bury people these days.

SB Leader wrote:-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

I think god is a crude hypothesis. The trinity; god the father, son and holy ghost is meant to answer the questions earlier creation myths, the Enema Elish and the Theogeny, for example, were intended to address: Where did the world come from? What is it made of? How does it work? There are much more sophisticated ideas, with more compelling evidence.

SB Leader wrote:-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)

Well, it's possible that once upon a time god was this tiny little thing that was everywhere, knew and could do everything, but as there was nowhere, nothing to know or do, it got bored and blew itself to bits in some sort of big bang/Spinoza mash up. Then again, perhaps god really is a completely different substance to the universe and controls it in the way Xenophanes suggested: ‘God is one, supreme among gods and men, and not like mortals in body or in mind,’ who ‘without effort sets all things in motion with the power of mind and thought.’ It's hard to tell when even people who believe in god say he works in mysterious ways.

SB Leader wrote:-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

Well, first ya gotta do something he doesn't like, which depending on who you listen to could be anything. Next you have to hope he isn't the wrathful nutter of the old testament.

SB Leader wrote:-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

Some people can't handle abstract concepts and have to anthropomorphize everything.

SB Leader wrote:-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

Better ideas.

Sorry. It's Enuma Elish, not enema. F@#king tablet!

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:32 pm**

SB Leader wrote:Happy Easter everyone! I hope I am posting this in the right place--if not, I apologize.

Happy indeed.

I feel like I should introduce myself briefly as this is my first post. My name is Zach and I am a sophomore at a small place called Crown College. I have worked with an online gaming ministry, Soldiers of Christ, for some 8 years now, so I am familiar with some of the meandering currents of the internet ocean--some people are willing to have a discussion, others are not. But fortunately, I hope this will be a pretty tame, yet still enlightening discussion.

Welcome Zach.

I am currently working on a research project for college that includes these questions. But try not to think of this as research--I won't include any of your real names, but it really would help me if you could answer these as honestly as you can. If you do not feel comfortable answering these questions in public, you can also pm me.

K

In summary, I would love to open up honest conversations about some of these questions! While I am directing this at non-believers, I would welcome other Christians to interact with this topic as well. Here are the questions:

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

I am an atheist although I have a strong belief in Cthulhu. Which is kinda ironic but have you seen the sleeper in your dreams whose tentacles reach above and take your soul... Yeah I know I'm fooling myself but he haunts my dreams...

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

Invisible pink unicorn. To enjoy life.

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)

Who cares?

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

Magic.

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

Some dead guy who may or may not of existed.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

Hypocrisy and deviation from the original religion.

Thank you all! I am excited to see where this will lead.

May Cthulhu bless your endeavour and may his tentacles lead you to the death and agony you deserve.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:48 pm**

SB Leader wrote:Thank you so much, Felasco.

You're welcome, and thanks for the thread.

And I agree with you a million times over about the problems with the church today. The authority structures are generally broken

From my perspective it is the concept of human religious authority itself which is the problem. It doesn't really make sense, does it? If there is a God, why not take one's questions to the Highest Authority? Why settle for second best?

I have been theorizing for some time that the number one enemy of Christianity in America is apathy. It is appalling, but not all of us are like that!

Yes, both your statements seem true. So we might next ask why do religious communities, Christian in this case, so often suffer from such an apathy?

I am familiar, but thank you.

Ah, good.

I actually posted this same thread over at atheistforums.com and got quite the lively discussion.

Yes, that sounds right. Right in to the lion's den then, are you?

In some ways I empathize with the vitriol towards religion--it has hurt a lot of people. But I do wish people could see past the stereotypes and be open for a respectful dialogue.

Yes, there are different issues involved.

It's true that some have been hurt by religion, and we often see that the most vehement atheists used to be the most vehement theists. It often seems that vehemence itself is their real interest.

Others sincerely don't yet see that atheism is as illogical and unsupportable as theism, and so they are confused by what is to them a huge difference.

Often forum users are just looking for something, anything, to debunk, and theism makes an easy target for the lazy among us.

Sometimes it's that all the traditional victim groups have been taken off the table by political correctness, and so the urge to have an underdog to kick around must find a new target, and theists are still fair game.

All of it's a good testing ground for your love and faith, eh?

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:03 pm**

SB Leader wrote:...
-How would you describe your religious background ...

CofE Atheist Buddhist.

and church involvement?

Like most in the UK, christenings, marriages, funerals.

-To you, what is God like? Describe God.

If you mean the monotheistic one from the abrahamic religions then non-existent.

Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

Water, food, shelter, fire, sex, sleep, family, friends, social groups, security, protection, law, order, work, hobbies, holidays, aims, goals, outcomes, striving, talking, reading, love and kindness. There's probably a few more.

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)

Atheist but I'll speculate anyway, important - lots of rocks and burning gases and insects. Unimportant - what people think about 'it'.

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

I'd guess not doing what you think your 'God' wouldn't like and doing the things you think 'it' would.

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

That I've stubbed my toe or a radical jew.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

A misogynistic patriarchal hierarchy, celibacy and hypocrisy.

Thank you all! I am excited to see where this will lead.

You're welcome, hope this helped.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:34 am**

Thank you all for answering, it was very helpful.

From my perspective it is the concept of human religious authority itself which is the problem. It doesn't really make sense, does it? If there is a God, why not take one's questions to the Highest Authority? Why settle for second best?

Yes! Exactly right, I have been saying this for ever. You and I are on the same wavelength man.

Yes, both your statements seem true. So we might next ask why do religious communities, Christian in this case, so often suffer from such an apathy?

I think there are a lot of factors to this. In my experience, the greatest cause of apathy in most communities is comfort. When things are going well there is no real need to try innovative and fresh ideas. The church in America has been enjoying over 200 years of being nearly unopposed, but now that secularism is rising in our nation it seems like the church is struggling to rouse itself. When you compare the American church with the church in China or many in Africa, you see this profound dichotomy--one is meddling while the others are growing in huge swaths. The Chinese underground church has been facing a lot of heat, but that has only caused Christianity to explode even more. China is now set to become the largest Christian nation in only a few years. Incredible! Does that mean we need persecution here in America? Perhaps it would help, but I think the easier way is to just wake up and see that a "meh" attitude is not what we have been called to. As believers we are called to love, and I think in today's church it is seen as this passive command ("I will love by not hating anyone") But Jesus asked us to Love, to live radically different lives infused with love. We should be pouring love out to others every day and some of us are! There needs to be a larger focus on this however.

Yes, there are different issues involved.

It's true that some have been hurt by religion, and we often see that the most vehement atheists used to be the most vehement theists. It often seems that vehemence itself is their real interest.

Others sincerely don't yet see that atheism is as illogical and unsupportable as theism, and so they are confused by what is to them a huge difference.

Often forum users are just looking for something, anything, to debunk, and theism makes an easy target for the lazy among us.

Sometimes it's that all the traditional victim groups have been taken off the table by political correctness, and so the urge to have an underdog to kick around must find a new target, and theists are still fair game.

All of it's a good testing ground for your love and faith, eh?

I believe you are dead on here. In my time over there it really opened my eyes: they did not need a mountain of explanations (They weren't interested in those anyways!), they needed to be shown love. It is tough, but you are absolutely right: I need to be testing my limits both in love and in faith and asking God to continue to build those areas up in my life.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:54 am**

SB Leader wrote: I need to be testing my limits both in love and in faith

You won't do that by ignoring challenges.

SB Leader wrote:and asking God to continue to build those areas up in my life.

While he's on the line, ask him about confirmation bias.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:22 pm**

SB Leader wrote:But Jesus asked us to Love, to live radically different lives infused with love. We should be pouring love out to others every day and some of us are! There needs to be a larger focus on this however.

Although I haven't been Catholic in 50 years, I like the new Pope's focus on serving the poor. How much of that is talk and how much is action I'm not sure yet, but the direction seems right.

Point being, if the apathy in the Christian community is to be conquered it's not only a larger focus on love that is needed, but a shift of focus from words to deeds, from beliefs and evangelizing to service, from head to heart.

As example, where I live in the American south, there is a multi-million dollar church building at every third intersection. Think how many billions of dollars are tied up in church property all across America. And for what? So people can dress up in nice clothes and watch a ceremony once a week.

That's the apathy on display for all to see. Every big church building is like a huge billboard proclaiming to passerby, "We don't really believe in Jesus and love after all, sorry, we were just kidding."

Imho, a focus on beliefs, authority figures, books, money and buildings etc is really a way of saying that love isn't enough. Imho, the structures of organized Christian religions are really an argument with the brilliant simplicity of Jesus's message which I see to be, love is enough.

I believe you are dead on here. In my time over there it really opened my eyes: they did not need a mountain of explanations (They weren't interested in those anyways!), they needed to be shown love.

I've spent a lot of time on atheist forums, way too much. Anyway, I recall this one forum full of fire breathing atheist ideologues. Any Christian that might happen to wander in to the forum was taken down by a pack of wolves.

But there was this one Christian who'd been there for years, and everybody liked her, she was one of the gang. She did what you suggest, she just loved everybody, and she skipped all the debates. It seemed that for her, Christianity was a matter of the heart, not of the head.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:22 pm**

SB Leader wrote:-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

raised southern baptist but not the real crazy variety of southern baptist (social southern baptist more than anything)

now primitive baptist universalist

sunday school teacher/babysitter, church IT girl

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

dont know what god is like

i feel gods presence most often when i am about to do something stupid and i hear the voice in my head tell me 'this is stupid'. the voice sounds like it is trying to be patient with a retarded child

i was sentenced to anger management a little while back after smashing a classmate's face into a desk (he was a douchebag though) - for me anger management included learning to better listen to that voice

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)

people not being stupid douchebags

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

see above

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

without christ god could not have subjective knowledge of humanity . There is no other way God could know what it is like to be human and know how to deal with sinful nature of humanity. (check out Karl Jung's "answer to job")

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

lack of a sense of humor

too many uptight old people

mistaken belief that god is an American and a Republican (common in the USA)

lack of creativity in understanding the bible and its context

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:36 pm**

uwot wrote:You won't do that by ignoring challenges.

If uwot will forgive me, I believe this statement reflects a misunderstanding of what Christianity and human beings are really about.

As I see it, the human condition might be compared to an M&M candy.

There is a thin hard crunchy shell on the outside (reason), covering up a much larger soft and squishy middle (emotion). That is who we are.

Atheists like to fancy themselves as razor sharp reasoners, but even the very best reasoner is confining their interest and investigation to the smallest part of the human experience.

Atheists typically think of religion as being little more than a pile of ideological assertions, because to look at religion that way keeps the focus in what is a safe zone for the atheist, the realm of abstract intellectualisms.

But anybody who looks at religion and God threads on philosophy forums with a reasonably clear mind can see that the enterprise is typically fueled almost entirely by emotion. Emotion is the engine that drives the experience, and the logical arguments are just the fuel that keeps the emotion motor running.

The great irony is that it is the theists (the better ones anyway) who are the realists about the human condition, whereas the atheists are typically the idealists, the dreamers, pining away for a human condition that has never existed, and most likely never will.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:38 pm**

Felasco wrote:
uwot wrote:You won't do that by ignoring challenges.
If uwot will forgive me, I believe this statement reflects a misunderstanding of what Christianity and human beings are really about.

One of the stories, I remember from childhood was about the path of christ being a rocky road, compared to the smooth tarmac of heathens. I may have misunderstood, but as forgiveness is not an exclusively Christian capacity, I forgive you.

Felasco wrote:As I see it, the human condition might be compared to an M&M candy.

You may be onto something, over here candy coated chocolate drops are called smarties.

Felasco wrote:But anybody who looks at religion and God threads on philosophy forums with a reasonably clear mind can see that the enterprise is typically fueled almost entirely by emotion. Emotion is the engine that drives the experience, and the logical arguments are just the fuel that keeps the emotion motor running.

Yes, well. The crispy bit of me says make your mind up: are god threads fuelled by emotion, or are logical arguments the fuel?

Felasco wrote:The great irony is that it is the theists (the better ones anyway) who are the realists about the human condition, whereas the atheists are typically the idealists, the dreamers, pining away for a human condition that has never existed, and most likely never will.

The problem is, Felasco, you can opine on your feelings and no doubt some people will mutter approval and nod sagely. Oi, SB Leader! Any word from god about confirmation bias?

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:08 am**

The crispy bit of me says make your mind up: are god threads fuelled by emotion, or are logical arguments the fuel?

In my view, generally speaking, most of the time, the logical arguments are a means to an emotional end.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:42 am**

SB Leader wrote:Happy Easter everyone! I hope I am posting this in the right place--if not, I apologize.

I feel like I should introduce myself briefly as this is my first post. My name is Zach and I am a sophomore at a small place called Crown College. I have worked with an online gaming ministry, Soldiers of Christ, for some 8 years now, so I am familiar with some of the meandering currents of the internet ocean--some people are willing to have a discussion, others are not. But fortunately, I hope this will be a pretty tame, yet still enlightening discussion.

I am currently working on a research project for college that includes these questions. But try not to think of this as research--I won't include any of your real names, but it really would help me if you could answer these as honestly as you can. If you do not feel comfortable answering these questions in public, you can also pm me.

In summary, I would love to open up honest conversations about some of these questions! While I am directing this at non-believers, I would welcome other Christians to interact with this topic as well. Here are the questions:

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
Believed in a creator when young, thought I might be an atheist later, now see that being agnostic is the only way to proceed, in truth.

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
If a creator exists, I would have no idea, as I have not met it. It's important to live your own life, trying to come to terms with the truth of things, so as to eliminate ones falsehood.

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
I hate mans god, and only believe in the possibility of a creator, that as of yet no man has been proven to know, such that whats in it's mind, if it has one, is currently unknowable.

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
This assumes one is not straightened out, what ever that's supposed to mean, which would purely be a matter of arbitrary perspective.

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
A man that once lived, was a philosopher, having good ideas, as to peace, for his time.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
Never been to one, accept to get married, it was her idea, and I gave her what she wanted.

Thank you all! I am excited to see where this will lead.

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