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Dresden

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:03 pm
by Hjarloprillar
"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time.

___

Toward the end of World War II, as Allied planes rained death and destruction over Germany, the old Saxon city of Dresden lay like an island of tranquillity amid desolation. Famous as a cultural center and possessing no military value, Dresden had been spared the terror that descended from the skies over the rest of the country.

In fact, little had been done to provide the ancient city of artists and craftsmen with anti-aircraft defenses. One squadron of planes had been stationed in Dresden for awhile, but the Luftwaffe decided to move the aircraft to another area where they would be of use. A gentlemen's agreement seemed to prevail, designating Dresden an "open city."

February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

On Shrove Tuesday, February 13, 1945, a flood of refugees fleeing the Red Army 60 miles away had swollen the city's population to well over a million. Each new refugee brought fearful accounts of Soviet atrocities. Little did those refugees retreating from the Red terror imagine that they were about to die in a horror worse than anything Stalin could devise.

Normally, a carnival atmosphere prevailed in Dresden on Shrove Tuesday. In 1945, however, the outlook was rather dismal. Houses everywhere overflowed with refugees, and thousands were forced to camp out in the streets shivering in the bitter cold.

However, the people felt relatively safe; and although the mood was grim, the circus played to a full house that night as thousands came to forget for a moment the horrors of war. Bands of little girls paraded about in carnival dress in an effort to bolster warning spirits. Half-sad smiles greeted the laughing girls, but spirits were lifted.

No one realized that in less than 24 hours those same innocent children would die screaming in Churchill's firestorms. But, of course, no one could know that then. The Russians, to be sure, were savages, but at least the Americans and British were "honorable."

So, when those first alarms signaled the start of 14 hours of hell, Dresden's people streamed dutifully into their shelters. But they did so without much enthusiasm, believing the alarms to be false, since their city had never been threatened from the air. Many would never come out alive, for that "great democratic statesman," Winston Churchill--in collusion with that other "great democratic statesman," Franklin Delano Roosevelt--had decided that the city of Dresden was to be obliterated by saturation bombing.

What where Churchill's motives? They appear to have been political, rather than military. Historians unanimously agree that Dresden had no military value. What industry it did have produced only cigarettes and china.

But the Yalta Conference was coming up, in which the Soviets and their Western allies would sit down like ghouls to carve up the shattered corpse of Europe. Churchill wanted a trump card--a devastating "thunderclap of Anglo-American annihilation"--with which to "impress" Stalin.

That card, however, was never played at Yalta, because bad weather delayed the originally scheduled raid. Yet Churchill insisted that the raid be carried out--to "disrupt and confuse" the German civilian population behind the lines.

Dresden's citizens barely had time to reach their shelters. The first bomb fell at 10:09 p.m. The attack lasted 24 minutes, leaving the inner city a raging sea of fire. "Precision saturation bombing" had created the desired firestorm.

A firestorm is caused when hundreds of smaller fires join in one vast conflagration. Huge masses of air are sucked in to feed the inferno, causing an artificial tornado. Those persons unlucky enough to be caught in the rush of wind are hurled down entire streets into the flames. Those who seek refuge underground often suffocate as oxygen is pulled from the air to feed the blaze, or they perish in a blast of white heat--heat intense enough to melt human flesh.

One eyewitness who survived told of seeing "young women carrying babies running up and down the streets, their dresses and hair on fire, screaming until they fell down, or the collapsing buildings fell on top of them."

There was a three-hour pause between the first and second raids. The lull had been calculated to lure civilians from their shelters into the open again. To escape the flames, tens of thousands of civilians had crowded into the Grosser Garten, a magnificent park nearly one and a half miles square.

The second raid came at 1:22 a.m. with no warning. Twice as many bombers returned with a massive load of incendiary bombs. The second wave was designed to spread the raging firestorm into the Grosser Garten.

It was a complete "success." Within a few minutes a sheet of flame ripped across the grass, uprooting trees and littering the branches of others with everything from bicycles to human limbs. For days afterward, they remained bizarrely strewn about as grim reminders of Allied sadism.

At the start of the second air assault, many were still huddled in tunnels and cellars, waiting for the fires of the first attack to die down. At 1:30 a.m. an ominous rumble reached the ears of the commander of a Labor Service convoy sent into the city on a rescue mission. He described it this way:

"The detonation shook the cellar walls. The sound of the explosions mingled with a new, stranger sound which seemed to come closer and closer, the sound of a thundering waterfall; it was the sound of the mighty tornado howling in the inner city."

MELTING HUMAN FLESH

Others hiding below ground died. But they died painlessly--they simply glowed bright orange and blue in the darkness. As the heat intensified, they either disintegrated into cinders or melted into a thick liquid--often three or four feet deep in spots.

Shortly after 10:30 on the morning of February 14, the last raid swept over the city. American bombers pounded the rubble that had been Dresden for a steady 38 minutes. But this attack was not nearly as heavy as the first two.

However, what distinguished this raid was the cold-blooded ruthlessness with which it was carried out. U.S. Mustangs appeared low over the city, strafing anything that moved, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. One assault was aimed at the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.

In the last year of the war, Dresden had become a hospital town. During the previous night's massacre, heroic nurses had dragged thousands of crippled patients to the Elbe. The low-flying Mustangs machine-gunned those helpless patients, as well as thousands of old men, women and children who had escaped the city.

When the last plane left the sky, Dresden was a scorched ruin, its blackened streets filled with corpses. The city was spared no horror. A flock of vultures escaped from the zoo and fattened on the carnage. Rats swarmed over the piles of corpses.

A Swiss citizen described his visit to Dresden two weeks after the raid: "I could see torn-off arms and legs, mutilated torsos and heads which had been wrenched from their bodies and rolled away. In places the corpses were still lying so densely that I had to clear a path through them in order not to tread on arms and legs."


****************

Kurt Vonnegut was in Dresden when it was bombed in 1945, and wrote a famous anti-war novel, Slaughterhouse Five, in 1969.

***************

The death toll was staggering. The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000 -- possibly as many as a half a million -- persons died within a 14-hour period, whereas estimates of those who died at Hiroshima range from 90,000 to 140,000.*

Allied apologists for the massacre have often "twinned" Dresden with the English city of Coventry. But the 380 killed in Coventry during the entire war cannot begin to compare with over 1,000 times that number who were slaughtered in 14 hours at Dresden. Moreover, Coventry was a munitions center, a legitimate military target. Dresden, on the other hand, produced only china--and cups and saucers can hardly be considered military hardware!

It is interesting to further compare the respective damage to London and Dresden, especially when we recall all the Hollywood schmaltz about the "London blitz." In one night, 1,600 acres of land were destroyed in the Dresden massacre. London escaped with damage to only 600 acres during the entire war.

In one ironic note, Dresden's only conceivable military target -- its railroad yards -- was ignored by Allied bombers. They were too busy concentrating on helpless old men, women and children.

If ever there was a war crime, then certainly the Dresden Holocaust ranks as the most sordid one of all time. Yet there are no movies made today condemning this fiendish slaughter; nor did any Allied airman--or Sir Winston--sit in the dock at Nuremberg. In fact, the Dresden airmen were actually awarded medals for their role in this mass murder. But, of course, they could not have been tried, because there were "only following orders."

This is not to say that the mountains of corpses left in Dresden were ignored by the Nuremberg Tribunal. In one final irony, the prosecution presented photographs of the Dresden dead as "evidence" of alleged National Socialist atrocities against Jewish concentration-camp inmates!

Churchill, the monster who ordered the Dresden slaughter, was knighted, and the rest is history. The cold-blooded sadism of the massacre, however, is brushed aside by his biographers, who still cannot bring themselves to tell how the desire of one madman to "impress" another one let to the mass murder of up to a half million men, women and children.
_______________________________________________________________________________

The SHAME that the west is my home. i feel SOILED by allies action over Dresden. Soiled and stained like Auschwitz.

damn the leaders of allied air forces to hell for even tho i know there is no such place. there should be for such 'leaders' Such that made Auschwitz. and Dresden.
Damn them to hell

Re: Dresden

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:11 am
by Proud Cosmopolitan
Hjarloprillar wrote:"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time.

___

Toward the end of World War II, as Allied planes rained death and destruction over Germany, the old Saxon city of Dresden lay like an island of tranquillity amid desolation. Famous as a cultural center and possessing no military value, Dresden had been spared the terror that descended from the skies over the rest of the country.

In fact, little had been done to provide the ancient city of artists and craftsmen with anti-aircraft defenses. One squadron of planes had been stationed in Dresden for awhile, but the Luftwaffe decided to move the aircraft to another area where they would be of use. A gentlemen's agreement seemed to prevail, designating Dresden an "open city."

February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

On Shrove Tuesday, February 13, 1945, a flood of refugees fleeing the Red Army 60 miles away had swollen the city's population to well over a million. Each new refugee brought fearful accounts of Soviet atrocities. Little did those refugees retreating from the Red terror imagine that they were about to die in a horror worse than anything Stalin could devise.

Normally, a carnival atmosphere prevailed in Dresden on Shrove Tuesday. In 1945, however, the outlook was rather dismal. Houses everywhere overflowed with refugees, and thousands were forced to camp out in the streets shivering in the bitter cold.

However, the people felt relatively safe; and although the mood was grim, the circus played to a full house that night as thousands came to forget for a moment the horrors of war. Bands of little girls paraded about in carnival dress in an effort to bolster warning spirits. Half-sad smiles greeted the laughing girls, but spirits were lifted.

No one realized that in less than 24 hours those same innocent children would die screaming in Churchill's firestorms. But, of course, no one could know that then. The Russians, to be sure, were savages, but at least the Americans and British were "honorable."

So, when those first alarms signaled the start of 14 hours of hell, Dresden's people streamed dutifully into their shelters. But they did so without much enthusiasm, believing the alarms to be false, since their city had never been threatened from the air. Many would never come out alive, for that "great democratic statesman," Winston Churchill--in collusion with that other "great democratic statesman," Franklin Delano Roosevelt--had decided that the city of Dresden was to be obliterated by saturation bombing.

What where Churchill's motives? They appear to have been political, rather than military. Historians unanimously agree that Dresden had no military value. What industry it did have produced only cigarettes and china.

But the Yalta Conference was coming up, in which the Soviets and their Western allies would sit down like ghouls to carve up the shattered corpse of Europe. Churchill wanted a trump card--a devastating "thunderclap of Anglo-American annihilation"--with which to "impress" Stalin.

That card, however, was never played at Yalta, because bad weather delayed the originally scheduled raid. Yet Churchill insisted that the raid be carried out--to "disrupt and confuse" the German civilian population behind the lines.

Dresden's citizens barely had time to reach their shelters. The first bomb fell at 10:09 p.m. The attack lasted 24 minutes, leaving the inner city a raging sea of fire. "Precision saturation bombing" had created the desired firestorm.

A firestorm is caused when hundreds of smaller fires join in one vast conflagration. Huge masses of air are sucked in to feed the inferno, causing an artificial tornado. Those persons unlucky enough to be caught in the rush of wind are hurled down entire streets into the flames. Those who seek refuge underground often suffocate as oxygen is pulled from the air to feed the blaze, or they perish in a blast of white heat--heat intense enough to melt human flesh.

One eyewitness who survived told of seeing "young women carrying babies running up and down the streets, their dresses and hair on fire, screaming until they fell down, or the collapsing buildings fell on top of them."

There was a three-hour pause between the first and second raids. The lull had been calculated to lure civilians from their shelters into the open again. To escape the flames, tens of thousands of civilians had crowded into the Grosser Garten, a magnificent park nearly one and a half miles square.

The second raid came at 1:22 a.m. with no warning. Twice as many bombers returned with a massive load of incendiary bombs. The second wave was designed to spread the raging firestorm into the Grosser Garten.

It was a complete "success." Within a few minutes a sheet of flame ripped across the grass, uprooting trees and littering the branches of others with everything from bicycles to human limbs. For days afterward, they remained bizarrely strewn about as grim reminders of Allied sadism.

At the start of the second air assault, many were still huddled in tunnels and cellars, waiting for the fires of the first attack to die down. At 1:30 a.m. an ominous rumble reached the ears of the commander of a Labor Service convoy sent into the city on a rescue mission. He described it this way:

"The detonation shook the cellar walls. The sound of the explosions mingled with a new, stranger sound which seemed to come closer and closer, the sound of a thundering waterfall; it was the sound of the mighty tornado howling in the inner city."

MELTING HUMAN FLESH

Others hiding below ground died. But they died painlessly--they simply glowed bright orange and blue in the darkness. As the heat intensified, they either disintegrated into cinders or melted into a thick liquid--often three or four feet deep in spots.

Shortly after 10:30 on the morning of February 14, the last raid swept over the city. American bombers pounded the rubble that had been Dresden for a steady 38 minutes. But this attack was not nearly as heavy as the first two.

However, what distinguished this raid was the cold-blooded ruthlessness with which it was carried out. U.S. Mustangs appeared low over the city, strafing anything that moved, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. One assault was aimed at the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.

In the last year of the war, Dresden had become a hospital town. During the previous night's massacre, heroic nurses had dragged thousands of crippled patients to the Elbe. The low-flying Mustangs machine-gunned those helpless patients, as well as thousands of old men, women and children who had escaped the city.

When the last plane left the sky, Dresden was a scorched ruin, its blackened streets filled with corpses. The city was spared no horror. A flock of vultures escaped from the zoo and fattened on the carnage. Rats swarmed over the piles of corpses.

A Swiss citizen described his visit to Dresden two weeks after the raid: "I could see torn-off arms and legs, mutilated torsos and heads which had been wrenched from their bodies and rolled away. In places the corpses were still lying so densely that I had to clear a path through them in order not to tread on arms and legs."


****************

Kurt Vonnegut was in Dresden when it was bombed in 1945, and wrote a famous anti-war novel, Slaughterhouse Five, in 1969.

***************

The death toll was staggering. The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000 -- possibly as many as a half a million -- persons died within a 14-hour period, whereas estimates of those who died at Hiroshima range from 90,000 to 140,000.*

Allied apologists for the massacre have often "twinned" Dresden with the English city of Coventry. But the 380 killed in Coventry during the entire war cannot begin to compare with over 1,000 times that number who were slaughtered in 14 hours at Dresden. Moreover, Coventry was a munitions center, a legitimate military target. Dresden, on the other hand, produced only china--and cups and saucers can hardly be considered military hardware!

It is interesting to further compare the respective damage to London and Dresden, especially when we recall all the Hollywood schmaltz about the "London blitz." In one night, 1,600 acres of land were destroyed in the Dresden massacre. London escaped with damage to only 600 acres during the entire war.

In one ironic note, Dresden's only conceivable military target -- its railroad yards -- was ignored by Allied bombers. They were too busy concentrating on helpless old men, women and children.

If ever there was a war crime, then certainly the Dresden Holocaust ranks as the most sordid one of all time. Yet there are no movies made today condemning this fiendish slaughter; nor did any Allied airman--or Sir Winston--sit in the dock at Nuremberg. In fact, the Dresden airmen were actually awarded medals for their role in this mass murder. But, of course, they could not have been tried, because there were "only following orders."

This is not to say that the mountains of corpses left in Dresden were ignored by the Nuremberg Tribunal. In one final irony, the prosecution presented photographs of the Dresden dead as "evidence" of alleged National Socialist atrocities against Jewish concentration-camp inmates!

Churchill, the monster who ordered the Dresden slaughter, was knighted, and the rest is history. The cold-blooded sadism of the massacre, however, is brushed aside by his biographers, who still cannot bring themselves to tell how the desire of one madman to "impress" another one let to the mass murder of up to a half million men, women and children.
_______________________________________________________________________________

The SHAME that the west is my home. i feel SOILED by allies action over Dresden. Soiled and stained like Auschwitz.

damn the leaders of allied air forces to hell for even tho i know there is no such place. there should be for such 'leaders' Such that made Auschwitz. and Dresden.
Damn them to hell

So compared to Iraq, Dresden was truly "Shocking & Awful"

Re: Dresden

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:30 am
by mickthinks
Hjarloprillar wrote:"More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. "
Are you a Nazi sympathiser, Prill? Because you seem to be spreading their propaganda for them ...

from Wikipedia:
The bombing of Dresden has been manipulated by Holocaust deniers and pro-Nazi polemicists—most notably by the British writer David Irving in his book The Destruction of Dresden—in an attempt to establish a moral equivalence between the death toll of Jews in German concentration camps and the indiscriminate killing of German civilians by Allied bombing raids.[121] As such, "grossly inflated" casualty figures have been promulgated over the years, many based on a figure of over 200,000 deaths quoted in a forged version of the casualty report, Tagesbefehl No. 47, that originated with Hitler's Reich Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels.

Re: Dresden

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:28 am
by Blaggard
200,000 innocent men women and children were instantly vaporised in Hiroshima and Nagasaki too, for no other reason than to scare the Russians, it wasn't to save American lives that's for sure because Japan would of surrendered with or without the bomb and if Russia never entered the war. Nearly a million would die later from radiation poisoning.

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:33 am
by Hjarloprillar
mickthinks wrote:Are you a Nazi sympathiser, Prill? Because you seem to be spreading their propaganda for them ...
No. I observe.
Show me valid military targets in Dresden. Show me reason FB's strafed civ refugees.
Nazism was blot on soul of humanity.
And there are always apologists like you who say Dresden wasn't so bad.
200,000 innocent men women and children were instantly vaporised in Hiroshima and Nagasaki too, for no other reason than to scare the Russians, it wasn't to save American lives that's for sure because Japan would of surrendered with or without the bomb and if Russia never entered the war. Nearly a million would die later from radiation poisoning.
If i remember right Truman asked why 'Little boy' wep could not be dropped on Tokyo bay as demonstration.
He was ganked by military .

prill

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:50 am
by vegetariantaxidermy
Dresden was a cnut of a thing to do by any standards.

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:06 am
by Hjarloprillar
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Dresden was a cnut of a thing to do by any standards.
By any standards.
Agree
I am not pro-soviet or pro-nazi.
I see the event. It was ethically and morally wrong.
Allied Apologists say this or that but civilians in Chemnitz wondered at red fire on horizon many miles to nnE.

'children burning' is what it was.

The Catholics admit their sins of the inquisition. The scourge of death led by Torquemada.
The Allies still put it to populace that 'we are good'
-----------
Cosmopolitan...

Btw Iraq and Iran were established and armed by the west. In iraq war of '91 they sent their 'allied built airforce' to Iran.
[who kept it alongside their f14 tomcats]

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:08 am
by vegetariantaxidermy
mickthinks wrote:
Hjarloprillar wrote:"More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. "
Are you a Nazi sympathiser, Prill? Because you seem to be spreading their propaganda for them ...

from Wikipedia:
The bombing of Dresden has been manipulated by Holocaust deniers and pro-Nazi polemicists—most notably by the British writer David Irving in his book The Destruction of Dresden—in an attempt to establish a moral equivalence between the death toll of Jews in German concentration camps and the indiscriminate killing of German civilians by Allied bombing raids.[121] As such, "grossly inflated" casualty figures have been promulgated over the years, many based on a figure of over 200,000 deaths quoted in a forged version of the casualty report, Tagesbefehl No. 47, that originated with Hitler's Reich Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels.
Does everything have to be a tit for tat competition over who the fuck suffered the most in that shitty war??? Dresden was one vile episode in a vile war that was full of vile episodes perpetrated by humanity at its vilest.

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:21 am
by Blaggard
If i remember right Truman asked why 'Little boy' wep could not be dropped on Tokyo bay as demonstration.
He was ganked by military .
On the contrary almost all of CinC urged Truman to explore diplomatic means and revise conditions that ensured both sovereignty of Japan and immunity for the Emperor and that this would certainly be agreeable to Japanese surrender, which incidentally were the same terms basically the Germans got, and it was well known by interception of coded radio messages that Japan had been discussing peace with Russia for up to 6 months before the bombs were used, asking only for the same terms as potsdam which Germany surrendered under.
* In a 1985 letter recalling the views of Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall, former Assistant Secretary of War John J. McCloy elaborated on an incident that was

very vivid in my mind. . . . I can recall as if it were yesterday, [Marshall's] insistence to me that whether we should drop an atomic bomb on Japan was a matter for the President to decide, not the Chief of Staff since it was not a military question . . . the question of whether we should drop this new bomb on Japan, in his judgment, involved such imponderable considerations as to remove it from the field of a military decision
And actually the cabinet asked they drop the bombs on purely military targets but the targets were eventually chosen and approved by Truman and CinC. In war time the president has even more political clout than in peace, Truman wasn't ganked by anyone Truman was in the driving seat.

Truman was the man who dropped the Bomb the man who refused to accept anything but unconditional surrender knowing full well a simple revision to two conditions would end the war, long before the bombs were dropped, the military were ordered to it despite all of them going on the record later and saying not only was it unnecessary but it had nothing whatsoever to do with any military decision and was completely a political action done for political motivations.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were done to frighten the Russians and had nothing whatsoever to do with the lie that it was done to save American lives 200,000 innocent men women and children incinerated in a split second leaving not even bodies, and a million more dying later of related cancers all to scare Stalin out of his machinations for a soviet Japan.

The Japanese Emperor did not surrender after Nagasaki was dropped nor even Hiroshima, the Tokyo bombings had obviously caused many times more casualties, they surrendered the moment the Russians declared entry into the Pacific campaign.

I don't see there is any real basis to chastise the UK over the US, there were terrible acts committed by both in Dresden's case it was revenge for the bombing of all our major cities over 5 years, and that does not make it conscionable, it was a war crime, one England has since apologised for to Germany both in person and diplomatically. The day America apologises for any of it's dire foreign blunders of which there are plenty, is the day pigs fly out of my arse. ;)
y far the easiest [question] to answer, is whether it was ESSENTIAL to use the bomb in order to compel the Japanese to surrender on our terms within a few months. It was not ... There can hardly be a well-grounded dissent from the conclusion reached by the members of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey ... "that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

* In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:

[T]he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

n being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

* On September 20, 1945 the famous "hawk" who commanded the Twenty-First Bomber Command, Major General Curtis E. LeMay (as reported in THE NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE):

said flatly at one press conference that the atomic bomb "had nothing to do with the end of the war." He said the war would have been over in two weeks without the use of the atomic bomb or the Russian entry into the war. [THE DECISION, p. 336.]

The text of the press conference provides these details:

LEMAY: The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb.

THE PRESS: You mean that, sir? Without the Russians and the atomic bomb?
. . .
LEMAY: The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all. [THE DECISION, p. 336.]

Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why the Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. IT IS CLEAR THAT ALTERNATIVES TO THE BOMB EXISTED AND THAT TRUMAN AND HIS ADVISERS KNEW IT. [Emphasis added; DIPLOMATIC HISTORY, Vol. 14, No. 1, p. 110.]



Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings stated:

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war. . . .The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan. . . . [THE DECISION, p. 329; see additionally THE NEW YORK TIMES, October 6, 1945.]


Once the President decided to remove assurances for the Japanese Emperor from the Potsdam Proclamation which had been recommended by all close-in advisers except James F. Byrnes, everyone knew the war would go on: There was little doubt that the Japanese would fight on if the position of the Emperor was threatened. Accordingly, once the political parameters had been set, there were few choices left for the military. In these circumstances, after July 26 and the publication of the Potsdam Proclamation, the choice before the military leaders was narrowed--use the bomb or invade. [THE DECISION, pp. 358-65; 631- 2.]

However, note also that the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff felt so strongly about the matter that at Potsdam they went so far as to ask the British Chiefs of Staff to try to get Prime Minister Churchill to persuade President Truman to clarify assurances for the Emperor. (The British Chiefs did do this and Churchill did approach Truman, but to no avail.) Moreover, the U.S. Chiefs also made a direct approach to the President themselves on the same matter before the bomb was used. [THE DECISION pp. 245-8; 299-300; for additional detail see Kathryn C. Morris, H-JAPAN, Nov. 9, 1996.]




Le May was CinC of the airforce in the pacific and Admiral Leahy was CinC of the American naval campaign. Every single person involved in either the political cabinet or the military campaign have stated on the record the bombs played no material or strategic significance and that it was a political decision, except Truman, but then Truman's familly staunchly refuse to open his memoirs to public scrutiny, which says quite a lot. There are extensive records of all of the American CinC and most of the British allies including Winston Churchill urging diplomatic means to end the war after they realised Japan was basically a dead duck in the water with America having total air superiority and total naval superiority it would of been simple to starve the Japanese into surrender, but then the Russians were moving troops into Kamchatka prior to a certain invasion of Japan.

Whose going to throw stones when you are in glass houses?

(Oddly, Feis thought it "improbable that the Soviet government could have been prevailed on to reveal its intentions and so enable the Japanese better to prepare for the assault." However, there is ample evidence that by this point in the summer of 1945--with the Japanese fully aware of the Red Army build-up on the Manchurian border--Soviet fears that such a signal might increase Japan's capacity to prepare for the assault were no longer a significant factor; nor is there any evidence that this was a consideration. As noted, the draft Potsdam Proclamation included just such a strategy in preparation for the Potsdam meetings.) [For a discussion see THE DECISION, p. 774, fn 70.]

* Several scholars specializing in military matters have examined Japanese decision-making and added to the modern understanding. A recent study by Robert A. Pape, for instance, offers details concerning Japan's extreme military vulnerability (including shortages of everything from ammunition and fuel to trained personnel). He concludes: "Japan's military position was so poor that its leaders would likely have surrendered before invasion, and at roughly the same time in August 1945, even if the United States had not employed strategic bombing or the atomic bomb." In this situation:

The Soviet invasion of Manchuria on August 9 raised Japan's military vulnerability to a very high level. The Soviet offensive ruptured Japanese lines immediately, and rapidly penetrated deep into the rear. Since the Kwantung Army was thought to be Japan's premier fighting force, this had a devastating effect on Japanese calculations of the prospects for home island defense.

If their best forces were so easily sliced to pieces, the unavoidable implication was that the less well- equipped and trained forces assembled for [the last decisive home island battle] had no chance of success against American forces that were even more capable than the Soviets. [See THE DECISION, pp. 645-46.]

(After the Red Army attack began cutting through the Japanese armies in Manchuria, Prime Minister Suzuki is reported to have said: "Is the Kwantung Army that weak? Then the game is up.") [THE DECISION, p. 418.]

Pape adds: "In comparison to the Soviet entry the atomic bomb had little or no impact on the Army's position. First, the Army initially denied that the Hiroshima blast had been an atomic bomb. Second, they went to great lengths to downplay its importance. When Togo raised it as an argument for surrender on August 7, General Anami explicitly rejected it. Finally, the Army vigorously argued that minor civilian defense measures could offset the bomb's effects." [THE DECISION, p. 646 n.]

* Again, the official British history of the war against Japan concluded: "The Russian declaration of war was the decisive factor in bringing Japan to accept the Potsdam declaration, for it brought home to all members of the Supreme Council the realization that the last hope of a negotiated peace had gone and that there was no alternative but to accept the Allied terms sooner or later." [THE DECISION, p. 646 n.] * We may also note that on August 13--even as Tokyo struggled to devise a final response to Washington--intercepted MAGIC cables reported a "Japanese Army General Staff statement on surrender." The text (dated August 12) from the vice chief of the Army General Staff to Japan's military attaches in Sweden, Switzerland, and Portugal, included two main points. The first concerned the cause of surrender negotiations:

As a result of Russia's entrance into the war, the Empire, in the fourth year of its [war] endeavor, is faced with a struggle for the existence of the nation.

The second used a traditional formula to make clear the one critical point which would not be given up:

You are well aware of the fact that as a final move toward the preservation of the national structure [i.e., the Emperor and the Imperial system], diplomatic negotiations have been opened. . . . Unless the aforementioned condition is fulfilled, we will continue the war to the bitter end.

The atomic bomb was neither mentioned in this internal message nor cited as reason for the surrender negotiations.


There's much more information here, this is just a tiny portion of the evidence on the matter, as I said on another thread Gar Alperovitz has nearly 160 pages in his book devoted to citations: military archive and personal reports and sentiments, diary extracts and memoirs from all the major players and of course intercepted Japanese radio communications.

http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:35 pm
by Hjarloprillar
Blaggard

It seems my perception of events was basically crap.
That Truman was no Roosevelt ..[have i eaten own foot again]

What i can pass on is that weps were very small in panoply of todays arsenal.
Almost tactical battle field size [ 1 to 15 kt]

a single mirv'd missile has 8 to to 10- 200 to 500 kt weps
Ohio thus has
Armament: 24 × Trident I C4 SLBM with up to 8 MIRVed 100 ktTNT W76 nuclear warheads each, range 4,000 nmi (7,400 km; 4,600 mi)

196 warheads

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:48 pm
by Blaggard
Yeah Hiroshima and Nagasaki were little more than large conventional weapons of today in terms of explosive power.

Roosevelt was not at all approving off dropping bombs on civilian areas, he is on record as saying so, that said he was replaced by Truman shortly before the end of the war so who knows what would have happened had he been still alive...

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:34 pm
by Hjarloprillar
I am watching saving private Ryan [again]

The mother. WHo gave ~4 sons to a war unknown to fields of ohio.

The 'good' is that moral strength.That is now so rare in masses
that to deny.
"All evil needs to triumph is for
good men to do nothing"
I try to believe. but america makes it very hard when you can think well

prill

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:16 pm
by vegetariantaxidermy
Blaggard wrote:200,000 innocent men women and children were instantly vaporised in Hiroshima and Nagasaki too, for no other reason than to scare the Russians, it wasn't to save American lives that's for sure because Japan would of surrendered with or without the bomb and if Russia never entered the war. Nearly a million would die later from radiation poisoning.
Churchill and Truman were both psychopathic mass murderers, as was Dubya Bush. In fact, psychopathy seems to be a pre-requisite for leaders of world powers. It's a strange anomaly that people find this acceptable as long as mass murder is perpetrated by a leader of a democracy.

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:19 pm
by tbieter
Here is a short article on the danger of Putin's nationalism in my morning Pioneer Press.

"Since Western democracies have never confronted an aggressive personality-driven autocracy armed with strategic nuclear warheads, a response must be quickly improvised. The obvious first measure should be to commit all necessary resources to building a far more formidable strategic missile defense."
http://www.twincities.com/columnists/ci ... n-terrible

I found the article quite interesting. It presents a different perspective on the current Ukrainian problem.

Re: Dresden

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:23 pm
by Hjarloprillar
tbieter wrote:"Since Western democracies have never confronted an aggressive personality-driven autocracy armed with strategic nuclear warheads, a response must be quickly improvised. The obvious first measure should be to commit all necessary resources to building a far more formidable strategic missile defense.".
If that means more warheads.. then it is false.
Us has more than enough to 'carpark entire Russian nation'
[carpark . =turn into flat sheet of hot bitumen]

The basic message is true tho. Putin and the "aggressive personality-driven autocracy" Is going to need [maybe] a full display of US superpower military to curb
[Rome gathers legions]

"USSR #2 is every pentagon wet dream now that 'terrorism' has run it's course.
Especially army/airforce.

how orwellian
Image

prill