Philosophy Now Forum

I hope everyone didn't mind this "Argo" inspired thought experiment or if you were among a group of Canadians who ran into trouble during the early days of the Iran hostage incident, could you have reasonably and logically expected much of a diplomatic intervention on the part of the Canadian embassy knowing they probably had greater things to concern themselves with at the time?

I doubt anyone understood what there was to mind. I know I didn't.

As a Canadian in the present political climate, I don't expect my embassy anywhere to do anything for anyone, unless there is USian, Isreali or oil interest at stake.

Skip wrote:I doubt anyone understood what there was to mind. I know I didn't.

As a Canadian in the present political climate, I don't expect my embassy anywhere to do anything for anyone, unless there is USian, Isreali or oil interest at stake.

As a fellow Canadian I'm sure there was a time when it seemed like those maple leaf pins practically everyone wore when they went abroad and those maple leaf decals they also stuck on their bags seemed to be like some magic talisman against the "political and bureaucratic stink eye" people may have received if they happened to come from a country like the United States on which the world cast aspersions for certain obvious reasons and I hoped that time wasn't just my imaginings.

On edit, It did seem like the main thing any embassy was concerned with these days happened to be the interests of corporate fat cats.

You seem obsessed with Argo, whilst I think it was a good film that was much better historically than some of the crap the film industries of Samerica come out with, I think everyone is aware of the Canadians efforts in the process. That said I don't mind interesting philosophical questions regardless of how often and in which form they appear, so far you have asked some pretty good questions, so roll on oh Canuck friend.

Blaggard wrote:You seem obsessed with Argo, whilst I think it was a good film that was much better historically than some of the crap the film industries of Samerica come out with, I think everyone is aware of the Canadians efforts in the process. That said I don't mind interesting philosophical questions regardless of how often and in which form they appear, so far you have asked some pretty good questions, so roll on oh Canuck friend.

The thought experiment had more to do with "under what circumstances could and should someone realisically count on help from their country's diplomatic officials and at times EVEN their country's political officials (such as hint, hint former President Clinton) if they ended up in a "sticky situation" abroad and in my humble opinion, the answer could be "not much" depending on the situation. That may be a scary thing to contemplate and a good reason to avoid getting into a "sticky situation" abroad in the first place.

Proud Cosmopolitan wrote:

Blaggard wrote:You seem obsessed with Argo, whilst I think it was a good film that was much better historically than some of the crap the film industries of Samerica come out with, I think everyone is aware of the Canadians efforts in the process. That said I don't mind interesting philosophical questions regardless of how often and in which form they appear, so far you have asked some pretty good questions, so roll on oh Canuck friend.

The thought experiment had more to do with "under what circumstances could and should someone realisically count on help from their country's diplomatic officials and at times EVEN their country's political officials (such as hint, hint former President Clinton) if they ended up in a "sticky situation" abroad and in my humble opinion, the answer could be "not much" depending on the situation. That may be a scary thing to contemplate and a good reason to avoid getting into a "sticky situation" abroad in the first place.

Always should count on help, never should count on it meaning they are not subject to a countries judicial process, an Embassy has a duty to help its citizens always, provide a means to legal council, perhaps even a ticket home so they can be tried under their law if the country is demanding a death sentence or infinite imprisonment under their system; it has no responsibility though to get you off of a murder charge, or a drug trafficking charge, in a nation you went to with full knowledge of their laws.


I think a good rule of thumb is when in Rome do as the Romans would do.

Yea. Try to stay below everybody's radar, but if you do get into trouble, by all means call both your embassy and your parents (and PEN and Amnesty and DWB and the red cross and your church mission). The worst that can happen is they can't or won't help - but they might.

Blaggard wrote:

Proud Cosmopolitan wrote:

Blaggard wrote:You seem obsessed with Argo, whilst I think it was a good film that was much better historically than some of the crap the film industries of Samerica come out with, I think everyone is aware of the Canadians efforts in the process. That said I don't mind interesting philosophical questions regardless of how often and in which form they appear, so far you have asked some pretty good questions, so roll on oh Canuck friend.

The thought experiment had more to do with "under what circumstances could and should someone realisically count on help from their country's diplomatic officials and at times EVEN their country's political officials (such as hint, hint former President Clinton) if they ended up in a "sticky situation" abroad and in my humble opinion, the answer could be "not much" depending on the situation. That may be a scary thing to contemplate and a good reason to avoid getting into a "sticky situation" abroad in the first place.

Always should count on help, never should count on it meaning they are not subject to a countries judicial process, an Embassy has a duty to help its citizens always, provide a means to legal council, perhaps even a ticket home so they can be tried under their law if the country is demanding a death sentence or infinite imprisonment under their system; it has no responsibility though to get you off of a murder charge, or a drug trafficking charge, in a nation you went to with full knowledge of their laws.


I think a good rule of thumb is when in Rome do as the Romans would do.

I think embassies should intervene in "On Wings Of Eagles" type situations (where 2 employees of an American computer company, Electronic Data Systems,wound up UNLAWFULLY detained in an Iranian jail and their employer, Ross Perot and colleagues had to rescue them since the American embassy seemed rather DISINCLINED to do anything about their situation, UNLAWFULLY detained though they were) and as for a "Midnight Express" type situation (where some young American wound up "locked up abroad" in a Turkish jail in Istanbul for something to do with DRUGS) it would be "meh, they should only get rather LIMITED consular support."

Skip wrote:Yea. Try to stay below everybody's radar, but if you do get into trouble, by all means call both your embassy and your parents (and PEN and Amnesty and DWB and the red cross and your church mission). The worst that can happen is they can't or won't help - but they might.

Not to mention PRISONERS ABROAD or HOSTAGE UK for anyone in the United Kingdom.

I'm sure whether or not someone could count on any political or diplomatic intervention in a case of a "sticky situation" abroad may also depend on whether or not any "more pressing" situation such as a MAJOR natural calamity had "come up."

And, fcs, if you have any sense, stay out of countries that are hostile to your own, that are run by religious cults, spend a third of their national budget on the military and spying, are in a perpetual security crisis, constantly on the verge of revolution, about to experience economic collapse, have a per capita income below $1 a day.. ... um... You know what? Stay home.
Too many people want to grope you at airports, too many airplanes are falling out of the sky, and the ones that stay up spew global warming.

Skip wrote:And, fcs, if you have any sense, stay out of countries that are hostile to your own, that are run by religious cults, spend a third of their national budget on the military and spying, are in a perpetual security crisis, constantly on the verge of revolution, about to experience economic collapse, have a per capita income below $1 a day.. ... um... You know what? Stay home.
Too many people want to grope you at airports, too many airplanes are falling out of the sky, and the ones that stay up spew global warming.

Not to mention that TERRORISTS may still consider both EMBASSIES and AIRPORTS fair game for ATTACKS and they may have come up with a way of HIGHJACKING AIRLINERS in such a way that the PASSENGERS and FLIGHT ATTENDANTS COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT.