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What is the value of armed forces to make a nation "happy"?

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:12 pm
by The Voice of Time
As Europe is relatively to other major powers greatly reducing its standing force and being rather relaxed about its military R&D compared to for instance US, Russia, India and China, is this a good thing for happiness or bad thing?

Because obviously the money spent on the welfare of the people, which is some of the ways in which European countries are able to afford extensive welfare systems (freeing up expenses in military), do lead to an ability to make people happier, or at least pull more people out of misery (mainly talking about northern half of Europe in this regard, as bad fiscal policy has lead to crisis elsewhere that certainly does not make many people happy).

However, in the case that a conflict should erupt that is not solvable by diplomatic means, or whose diplomatic cost is too high, then the less capacity will amount to a case of possible great misery in the fight against a larger threat, not only because the threat is proportionally higher, but because it might be more tempting to attack proportionally weaker targets as well so war might happen more often (although this is not a straight-forward calculation, as aid money for instance does lead to more satisfied populations in Africa for instance, and that reduces conflict over sparse wealth, causing more long-term stability for the world at large, and that aid money comes from for instance freed up military spending power).

But the big question is: at what point is the reduction of standing forces too high that it down the line will give too much of an incentive for more militarized countries to use military force to enforce or cause trouble for their own aims?

Take another example, which is South Africa, once a major power in Africa, the "superpower of Africa", is now reduced to a very tiny (but well-supplied) military, that should not be able to secure South Africa in the case of large scale invasions, such as for instance (and now I'm being purely hypothetical, I do not find this likely) a Jihad that gathered large numbers of enemies, and atop they would be fighting guerilla. Now, of course South Africa wouldn't loose the fight, the country is all to big to fall against poorly equipped and trained volunteers in virtually any number. But just imagine the amount of "damage" that the country could be hit by, and so it's not merely a matter of winning a war of attrition, but securing that the enemy can't even do significant damage (except with nuclear weapons, although it's a very complicated technology to be possessed by most rogue organizations and Russia we trust will never go as far as use any nuclear weapon with a radius of damage anywhere near a cold-war nuclear ICBM for instace).

And having that security can be very costly because there are so many ways in which to strike a country, and the question then is: how much should we spend? Europe does have a hugely capable, technologically advanced and large scale force, split among its member countries (in fact, 1.5 million active duty soldiers, in EU alone), but is it sufficient to give the kind of security that we like to have in post-industrial countries? The feeling that "war just doesn't happen here, war is over there". This kind of feeling is certainly one of the things that shocked Norway in the Breivik assault of 22th of July, "this just doesn't happen here", and it turned out that although we did have forces to deal with such situations, quite close by actually, there were lacks in logistics for instance that slowed down the troops and lead to unnecessary amounts of deaths... one could argue that is is the kind of thing that only happens once every half a century or more (Nazi occupation being the last time), so although one should improve, just how much should we spend to improve? At what point are we exaggerating our expenses?

Norway has a very strong army. It's very well equipped, and well trained, but only if you count an average per head is it strong. Because compared to the only thinkable enemy "Russia", we lack heads, we are outnumbered something like 40-50 times or about that in active duty soldiers. Our security goal is to hold out until help arrives... but when you are outnumbered 50 times can you really hold out for any time? Isn't one good plan all the enemy needs to destroy you? So why don't we have a bigger army which supposedly could better hold out? The cost of course of a bigger army is immense, especially if Norway really is to perform that task on its own. So however big the enemy seems, it seems in the short run such a good option to just depend on things to never go that far, and let the nation flourish in what time of peace might be present...

So is Norway right in what it does? Is Europe right? Is South Africa right? Is an American, or Russian, or Chinese, or Indian answer, a better answer?

Re: What is the value of armed forces to make a nation "happ

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:30 pm
by Blaggard
Europe is a union, a gestalt, it can afford to reduce military because it knows, that the rest of Europe will automatically come to its aid, something America, China and Russia are not assured of. Further down the line I envision alliances between parts of the world to achieve the same ends, even further down the line I suspect that war at least conventional warfare will become redundant and too costly. It already stiffles technological development, at some point I think countries will realise co-operation is more likely to produce pragmatic results: CERN being one example, ITER being another, this is of course a long, long way down the line. I think even the most ardent political pessimist can see we are moving in the right direction, but as with anything human based, it takes time to make the apes see sense, roll on the Alien monoliths... :) ;)

gestalt
gəˈʃtɑːlt,-ˈʃtalt/
noun
Psychology
noun: gestalt; plural noun: gestalts

1. an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts.

At the end of the day politicians are not all idiots, just most of them are. ;)

And I once again post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1OZCHixR0

No one will watch it but it does pretty much sum up human beings. :P

Dude Finland beat Russia in a war, I think you are safe mate. :P
The Winter War (Finnish: Talvisota, Swedish: Vinterkriget, Russian: Зи́мняя война́, tr. Zimnyaya voyna)[25] was a military conflict between the Soviet Union and Finland in 1939–1940. It began with Soviet invasion of Finland on 30 November 1939 (three months after the outbreak of World War II), and ended with the Moscow Peace Treaty on 13 March 1940. The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal and expelled the Soviet Union from the League on 14 December 1939.[26]

The Soviet Union sought principally to claim parts of Finnish territory, demanding - amongst other concessions - that Finland cede substantial border territories in exchange for land elsewhere, claiming security reasons, primarily the protection of Leningrad, which was only 40 km from the Finnish border.[27][28][need quotation to verify] Finland refused and the Soviet Union declared war. At this time the Soviet Union established a Communist puppet government for Finland, and intended to conquer all of Finland according to some sources.[29][30][31] Other sources argue that there is no documentary evidence to support this and that there are arguments against the idea of a full Soviet conquest.[32][33]

The Soviets possessed more than three times as many soldiers as the Finns, thirty times as many aircraft, and a hundred times as many tanks. The Red Army, however, had been crippled by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin's Great Purge of 1937.[34] With more than 30,000 of its officers executed or imprisoned, including most of those of the highest ranks, the Red Army in 1939 had many inexperienced senior and mid-level officers.[35][36] Because of these factors, and high morale in the Finnish forces, Finland repelled Soviet attacks for several months, much longer than the Soviets expected.[37]

However, after reorganization and adoption of different tactics, the overwhelming numbers of Soviet forces overcame Finnish defenses at the borders. Finland then agreed to cede the territory originally demanded by the Soviet Union; the Soviets, having lost far more troops than anticipated, accepted this offer.

Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty. Finland ceded territory representing 11% of its land area and 30% of its economy to the Soviet Union.[38] Soviet losses were heavy, and the country's international reputation suffered.[39] While the Soviet Union did not conquer all Finland, Soviet gains somewhat exceeded their pre-war demands. They gained substantial territory along Lake Ladoga, providing a buffer for Leningrad, and territory in northern Finland.[40][need quotation to verify] Finland retained its sovereignty and enhanced its international reputation.

The war's end cancelled the Franco-British plan to send troops to Finland through northern Scandinavia. One of the operation's major goals had been to take control of northern Sweden's iron ore and cut its deliveries to Germany;[41] for this reason, it was also a major factor in the launching of Operation Weserübung, Nazi Germany's invasion of Denmark and Norway.
;)

Norway has some of the most advanced stealth cruisers in the world, I think and I may indeed be proved wrong, you will be ok. :P

Re: What is the value of armed forces to make a nation "happ

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:39 pm
by The Voice of Time
Finland beat Russia on a lot of luck, there was in fact a World War going on, and Russia had more pressing problems. The Russian losses in the Winter War and the Continuation War were fuelled by huge Russian focus on defeating Germany, huge losses from doing so, and a difficult terrain in Finland, + Finland got help from Nazi Germany to fight on Finnish soil. So yeah, don't trust history to repeat itself.

Also, Finland had nearly ten times as many troops fighting that war as Norway has in its standing army today (though they today have about an equal amount of inhabitants, so this is not from Finland being bigger), and lack of technological sophistication favoured the Finns in fighting on the terrain, you can be sure that is not the case today. So yeah, you might as well argue Norway increase its standing army by a tenfold (in fact, in the past before the Napoleonic wars, Norway had a huge army compared to its population, about the size of other major powers like France and Britain. The purpose of the army was to safe-guard it from being invaded by nearby Sweden which at the time was a very strong and powerful European power. And it worked as the army repelled frequent invasion-attempts by Sweden, and not until Denmark abandoned Norway when it lost in the Napoleonic wars fighting on Napoleons side, not until then did Norway end up in the hands of Sweden as a spoil of war... however, as a note, we did end up rather independent within a union, which in turn is a mark of the threat that an armed nation like Norway would pose to greedy Sweden, and so one could argue armament created peace, first through semi-independent Norwegian rule, then through a peaceful declaration of independence in 1905).

Re: What is the value of armed forces to make a nation "happ

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:46 pm
by Blaggard
True but you missed the more important point the European Union, are you really worried about your sovereign territory when you know a vast gestalt will be on your side at a moments notice?

Countries that don't have mutual defence pacts should and indeed are more worried, but each and every country in Europe is ensured that at the end of the day any invasion upon their soil or sovereignty is going to be met with a gestalt army of at least 40 nations. I hence refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago. :P

Well if you know your history you should mark well that the Northmen, or Normans eventually ended up with England. And those Northmen, were mostly from Northern Europe: Denmark, Sweden, Finland we got pwned by Northmen, although it's a complicated subject, and one can not doubt the ingress of the Saxons or the Celts being supplanted.

In a modern time England was basically Anglo Saxon, if it was not Roman, but it was so close to being Viking that it is not even funny. Alfred of the Saxons aka The Great got away with one of the most astounding victories in history, The Danes were conquered by him. And for the life of me reading the history I don't know how he pulled that off.
Alfred the Great (849 – 26 October 899) (Old English: Ælfrēd, Ælfrǣd, "elf counsel") was King of Wessex from 871 to 899.

Alfred successfully defended his kingdom against the Viking attempt at conquest, and by the time of his death had become the dominant ruler in England.[1] He is the only English monarch to be accorded the epithet "the Great".[2][3] Alfred was the first King of the West Saxons to style himself "King of the Anglo-Saxons".

Details of Alfred's life are described in a work by the 10th century Welsh scholar and bishop Asser. Alfred's reputation has been that of a learned and merciful man who encouraged education and improved his kingdom's legal system and military structure.
I suggest reading Bernard Cornwell's books on the matter, he also did the Sharpe series, how England became pre-eminent as the largest super power in history is pretty much a mystery. :P

Re: What is the value of armed forces to make a nation "happ

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:43 pm
by The Voice of Time
Blaggard wrote:True but you missed the more important point the European Union, are you really worried about your sovereign territory when you know a vast gestalt will be on your side at a moments notice?
I'm not worried about full-scale occupation or loosing a big war, but I'm worried about the consequences of insufficiency and the small things that can be lost when there's insufficient security.
Blaggard wrote:Countries that don't have mutual defence pacts should and indeed are more worried, but each and every country in Europe is ensured that at the end of the day any invasion upon their soil or sovereignty is going to be met with a gestalt army of at least 40 nations. I hence refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago. :P
Right now Ukraine seems to not fit that description.
Blaggard wrote:Well if you know your history you should mark well that the Northmen, or Normans eventually ended up with England. And those Northmen, were mostly from Northern Europe: Denmark, Sweden, Finland we got pwned by Northmen, although it's a complicated subject, and one can not doubt the ingress of the Saxons or the Celts being supplanted.

In a modern time England was basically Anglo Saxon, if it was not Roman, but it was so close to being Viking that it is not even funny. Alfred of the Saxons aka The Great got away with one of the most astounding victories in history, The Danes were conquered by him. And for the life of me reading the history I don't know how he pulled that off.
Whatever the Vikings did a 1000 years ago doesn't apply now. There's plenty of story I could've discussed with you, like how the Norman invaders really were Norwegian descendants (making that two Norwegian army commanders trying to conquer England in one year, the one, the "Last Viking King", also known as King Harald Hard-Ruler of Norway (which is like the coolest viking ever, I've read his saga), who died in an ill-fated ambush, and the Normans led by some descendant of a Norwegian Viking chieftain who conquered Normandy and made a deal with the French king). However, I'm gonna refrain from diverting the discussion into a summary and exchange of historical facts.
Blaggard wrote:I suggest reading Bernard Cornwell's books on the matter, he also did the Sharpe series, how England became pre-eminent as the largest super power in history is pretty much a mystery. :P
Not to be rude, but that's not gonna happen. I'm very selective with what I read, and English pre-colonial history is not really on my list of priorities.

Re: What is the value of armed forces to make a nation "happ

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:46 pm
by Blaggard
Well as long as you are not making banal assumptions about philosophy being some mean and pessimistic nightmare and history likewise, which it most certainly isn't and never was and never has been. We all get on. ;)

The ukraine are you sure?
(…)

Gas pipeline near Kiev. A gas pipeline near Kiev. Gazprom said Ukraine missed a payment of $440m for gas received in February. Photograph: Andrey Sinitsin/AFP/Getty Images

EU leaders are rapidly drawing up plans to send some of their stocks of Russian gas back to Ukraine and other eastern European countries that need it, if Vladimir Putin reacts to western sanctions over the Crimea crisis by starving the continent of energy.

Russia’s largest gas producer, Gazprom, said on Friday that Kiev had missed a deadline to pay $440m for gas received in February and threatened to cut off the country’s supply if it did not make the payment.

Gazprom provides Ukraine with around half its gas, and other countries in eastern and southern Europe, including Poland and Greece, reportedly have low stocks of gas.

Although Gazprom said the threat to Kiev would not affect the supply to the rest of Europe, western leaders are steeling themselves for a possible battle with Moscow over energy supplies. At least half of the Russian gas that is piped to Europe passes through Ukraine.

Gazprom last cut off supplies to Ukraine in early 2009, leading to a slump in the supply of Russian gas to Europe. “Either Ukraine makes good on its debt and pays for current supplies, or there is risk of returning to the situation of early 2009,” Gazprom CEO Alexei Miller said on Friday, adding that Ukraine now owed $1.89bn in unpaid bills.

The move to consider reversing Russian gas flows comes amid growing pressure in Washington to exploit the huge boom in US gas – extracted through fracking technologies – to begin global exports, providing a counter-weight to Moscow’s influence.

Although it is the largest producer of natural gas, the US does not currently export its supplies, and the construction of a handful of export terminals will not be completed until at least 2015. But Barack Obama’s administration considering moves to accelerate a drive to export its energy, weakening Putin’s leverage in the future.

In Brussels on Thursday, European leaders engaged in detailed discussions about the feasibility of switching the flow of gas in eastern Europe’s pipelines. Storage reserves in Europe, particularly Germany and Hungary, which have ample supplies, could be used to pump gas back towards Ukraine.

José Manuel Barroso, the president of European Commission, said energy security was an early priority for Ukraine, adding: “We are looking in the short term at the gas transmission network to ensure that reverse flows with the European Union are fully operational.”

A project to modernise Ukraine’s gas transmission infrastructure forms part of the EU’s $15bn promised aid package to Kiev, with an initial loan possible in the near future. A European Commission memorandum specifically states it will seek to enable “reverse flows” of gas to Ukraine, ensuring they can be “operationalised as soon as possible”.

Such a move would likely occur first through Slovakia, and EU officials are pressing Slovakia and Ukraine to quickly sign an agreement that would enable gas to be piped in the opposite direction if the need emerges. Additional “reverse-flow corridors” could be introduced through Bulgaria and Romania, or Croatia and Hungary.

A senior German official briefed on Thursday’s meeting told the Guardian that Berlin was ready to help. “Our gas storage tanks are well filled after a mild winter and we stand ready to assist Ukraine in securing its energy supply including working on reserve flows.”

However, European officials and energy experts concede there are doubts over whether it would be technically possible to transfer sufficient gas through the continent, west to east, if Russia decided to restrict its supplies for a significant period of time. While short-term assistance through the summer months could help, western Europe would not have the capacity to supply neighbours in the east for an extended period of time.

Speaking on the condition of anonymity, one senior executive said reversing gas flows would be an extremely complex move. “This is not easy to do. Certainly the Gazprom export pipeline is built to move gas only in one direction, and it would involve a lot of time and money to reconfigure for imports,” the executive said. “You would also have to get the agreement of dozens of commercial and other organisations. It is not going to happen.”

Europe imported 155bn cubic metres (bcm) of gas from Russia in 2013, about 30% of its overall gas demand, according to Wood Mackenzie, an Edinburgh-based energy consultancy. Ukraine is the key transit route for Russian gas to Europe, with around 50% piped through the country in 2013.

Gazprom insists exports remain stable, and is desperate to avoid a repeat of the Russia-Ukraine “gas wars” of 2006, 2008 and 2009.

In Washington, there is a growing appetite to retaliate against Russia with a long-term, strategic acceleration in energy exports. Exporting US gas obtained through fracking would be controversial among environmentalists, Democrats, and US industries reliant on cheap energy, the price of which would be expected to rise if supplies were being piped abroad.

Republicans, backed by gas producers such as ExxonMobil, have for years been pushing to dramatically increase gas production to enable export trade, and are using the crisis in Crimea to argue for swift action by the Obama administration.

US gas production is projected to rise 44% by 2040, according to the US Energy Information Administration, and producers have been pressing the Obama administration to expand exports of natural gas.

The Republican leader of the House, John Boehner, used an an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal on Friday to call on Obama to “dramatically expand production of American-made energy” and make US supplies of natural gas available to global markets.

The Department of Energy as approved six applications to export domestically approved applications for terminals to export liquefied gas; five are in Texas and Louisiana, and one in Maryland. A further 24 applications are pending and Boehner and other top Republicans are calling on the administration to expedite their approval. “The ability to turn the tables and put the Russian leader in check lies right beneath our feet, in the form of vast supplies of natural energy,” Boehner said.

The Obama administration appears receptive to moving to undercut Moscow’s hold over the energy sector. White House press secretary Jay Carney said this week that while the Department of Energy is approving terminal requests on a case-by-case basis, the US would look for ways to wean Ukraine from its “dependence on Russian gas”.

A senior US official said the State Department was supportive of introducing substantial gas exports abroad as a move to counteract Russia’s influence.

Carlos Pascual, a former American ambassador to Ukraine, who leads the State Department’s Bureau of Energy Resources, told the New York Times that opening global markets to US exports “sends a clear signal that the global gas market is changing, that there is the prospect of much greater supply coming from other parts of the world”.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... ia-ukraine
Not to be rude, but that's not gonna happen. I'm very selective with what I read, and English pre-colonial history is not really on my list of priorities.
Read what you want I aint the thort powlice. ;p

But nevertheless when the EU countries are with each other, they are seldom without each other. Something that probably will fall by the way side in this numb nut political tomfoolery.

The world has moved on but there are always the big assholes who want to bring it back to the past, and probably that which is most depressing is the idiots want to laud them for making the same old mistakes, it's like a nodding duck, you fuck up, you fuck up again, you fuck up, you fuck up again. Seriously we are quite the retard, human beings. :P