Philosophy Now Forum

What is the relationship between freedom and punishment? Can a libertarian believe in punishment? Can a determinist? Why?

You ask sub-fundemental questions, like you have been a shelterd kid never really observing much of life.

Have you been locked away in a closet as a child?

Ha ha I know right....

Actually quite the opposite....these are post I have to respond to for on online intro to phil class.
I have lived a very unsheltered life....is an understatement. I love learning about physics, metaphysics, quantum physics...., eastern philosophy, psychology, politics, and philosophy. I have watched countless lectures from Yale, MIT, Berkeley for pure enjoyment and curiosity. Also talks from "The four horseman", Noam Chompski, Tom Campbell, Deepak.....
I have been into this for years but like I said this is an into phil class and these are topic given to me.
I was hoping to get deeper thoughts and out of the box compared to the textbook "thought experiments."
So far I have...I am thankful.

Very well.

R2D2 wrote:What is the relationship between freedom and punishment?

That depend entirely on what the social structure allows an individual to decide and do independently, and what rules it has against which actions and what it considers to be appropriate correction; whether the group wants the erring individual brought back into line with the group's agenda, or out of the way, or made an example of for other members that might be tempted to test the limits of their autonomy too far.

Can a libertarian believe in punishment?

In my experience, a libertarian can believe in almost anything and its exact opposite, concurrently and/or consequently.

Can a determinist?

Determinist and 'believe in' don't sound like concepts that belong in the same sentence, but that's just my momentary impression.

Why?

Coz it's late Friday night and I'm a "glaringly ignorent cozy chatter.." ..er.
(Don't believe me? Ask HexHammer. Or not.....
...A joke they used to tell circa 1970 in the east bloc - poor countries with limited aeronautical capability:
Q: How do you get an airplane?
A: Buy a lot and wait.
.... Make a post - any post, on any subject - and wait.)

R2D2 wrote:What is the relationship between freedom and punishment? Can a libertarian believe in punishment? Can a determinist? Why?

Be nice if you actually stated your opinion. As so far all your posts sound like you want others to do your homework.

Although I agree with you that the Libertarian view is very flawed to say the least....more like a cop out,

I don't think our current judicial system works. I feel we make better criminals....if we treat someone like a criminal they will act like one. Look at our history in regards to the treatment of people in the penal system, our the treatment of the mentally insane. We have improved the way we care for the mentally ill but the criminal justice system is a joke. Sweden's prisons are good example of rehabilitation of prisoners. This may seem like an extreme and unrealistic to American's but I say consider the source. We lag behind most industrial nations in education, democracy, health statistics.... We are told that WE are the BEST...but few do their research to find out where we rank or what other countries actually are saying about us. Sorry....I can go on and on....I'm a very passionate person...lol

I don't have the answers but I'm sure someone does and they need to find a way to implement it. A complete over haul on the jail system...and Gov for that matter.

Ah, well, you didn't specify a context.

Every society creates its own kind of crime, criminals, enforcement, judiciary and retribution.

If you have a poly-glop culture, an ass-over-teakettle value system, a fucked-up economy, a thousand special interest groups with profits to make and axes to grind, a badly damaged political process and theocrats meddling in civil law, you're going to have all kinds of injustice, as well as all kinds of misbehaviour. If you're going to declare war on drugs and then send troops into Afghanistan to kill the guys who stopped the poppy traffic; build a wall around Mexico and then throw a shitload of guns and ammo over it; if you're going to randomly criminalize activities that don't hurt anyone and legalize systemic abuse; if you take all the resources out of food production and education and put it into military and spy hardware.... what do you expect to happen? Especially if you also romanticize greed and violence, 24 hours a day in the faces of the population from, like, age 1?

Sure, the justice system could work batter - but not all by itself, isolated from the society to which it responds!

Correction.....I meant to say Deterministic view is flawed.....oops

Skip you are spot on....I have a serious question...and anyone is welcome to help answer it.

Is there anywhere in the world you would rather live? If you could pack up and move anywhere would you and if so where? I want to move in 6 years...it seem our Gov has a presence every where. I'm worried that soon we will have one currency...one world order.

A lot of things will happen, most of them bad, and it won't take very long.

I live in Canada, which I much prefer to the US, politically. Even if our current [crappy, right-wing, pseudo-Christian] government is following yours into the 12th century, we're far enough behind to last my lifetime (if I don't eat too sensibly).
Other places that are still pretty good: France, Netherlands, maybe Belgium (too bad they're all having ex-colonial Muslim troubles); Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, (except for the six months of dark and cold); don't hear much about Austria, but they're fairly enlightened; Switzerland won't let you in. How good are you at languages? With the EU floundering, maybe the good countries won't stay good much longer; Britain is already in a mud-slide. New Zealand still sounds pretty good; Australia is either drowning or on fire most of the time. Expect more of that, everywhere.

Thanks Skip
Good to know because I've been looking at Norway and Sweden

How about US ?
Lots of space, nice landscapes, jobs, etc.

Prisons of any kind should be immediately abolished. If somebody commits a crime, the government can take one of the following three actions:

Punishment
a) For revenge (serves no positive purpose).
b) For rehabilitation (unsupported by psychological evidence).
c) For deterrence (government exploitation).

Restitution
Unequal protection under the law.

Control
Positive action designed to prevent recurrence.

The only proper action is control.

Thank you Bobevenson.

I agree...it doesn't help that US prisions are privatized.