Philosophy Now Forum

Suppose, for argument's sake, that you grew up in a world where nobody ever talked about gods or supernatural of any kind. Suppose you had an education where they taught you about nature, physics, scientific facts, technology, productive skills, social organization, project management, etc., etc, and no one ever mentioned anything that might even remotely suggest something that was not based on reliable experience and or logic.

No priests, no churches, no bibles, no superstition, no Santa Clauses, no tooth fairies, nothing but observable reality.

Would you have ever thought of anything outside this?

What, if anything, would have made you think that there might be something outside of your experience?

Ned wrote:Suppose, for argument's sake, that you grew up in a world where nobody ever talked about gods or supernatural of any kind. Suppose you had an education where they taught you about nature, physics, scientific facts, technology, productive skills, social organization, project management, etc., etc, and no one ever mentioned anything that might even remotely suggest something that was not based on reliable experience and or logic.

No priests, no churches, no bibles, no superstition, no Santa Clauses, no tooth fairies, nothing but observable reality.

Would you have ever thought of anything outside this?

What, if anything, would have made you think that there might be something outside of your experience?

Very difficult question to answer. I suspect you would be none the wiser, but I don't really have a good argument at the moment to say why this is the case.

An interesting thought experiment and one that I have written on myself in the past. I suppose one way of looking at it is that at some stage in human history some one or some group must have imagined the idea of a God without any prior knowledge of one. It probably took a very long time to do so- given that homo sapiens have been around for the best part of a million years and the first monotheistic religion came only 4000 years ago. So I think with enough time then the answer must be yes: the concept of God will be postulated. Of course given the level of scientific knowledge today it is very difficult to say for sure if modern humanity would postulate a similar God to the current one we have.

All this of course by no means presupposes these postulations should be correct.

I agree. Something must have caused the invention of religion, otherwise it would not exist today. Jared Diamond has a very interesting and convincing theory about the causes of religion in his newest book: "The World until Yesterday".

I was thinking more of what, in your own personal experience, as you remember it today, might have made you think that something beyond observable reality and logic could exist.

I was thinking more of what, in your own personal experience, as you remember it today, might have made you think that something beyond observable reality and logic could exist.

If you are going to phrase it broadly as "something beyond observable reality and logic" then it's very easy to arrive at that destination using only reason.

Every species on this planet is brilliant with the confines of it's ecological niche, or it wouldn't be there. And, every species on this planet is pretty clueless about that outside of it's ecological niche. This is the ground humans have grown from only very recently. Just 5,000 years ago we were living in caves.

"Observable reality and logic" refer to human abilities. Humans are one species on one planet in one of billions of galaxies, and that may be only the beginning of our smallness.

It seems quite likely that there is plenty that is beyond "observable reality and logic".

Felasco wrote:It seems quite likely that there is plenty that is beyond "observable reality and logic".

Quite possible. However, how would you observe it or deduce it?

But it still does not answer my original question.

Can you imagine anything that would have made you speculate about a possible god, based on your own personal experience in this hypothetical non-religious, non-superstitous world?

I started thinking about it when I realized that everything I know about God and religion was handed down to me by my parents and my culture.

That started me wondering about what, if anything, do I know from first-hand personal experience.

Can you imagine anything that would have made you speculate about a possible god, based on your own personal experience in this hypothetical non-religious, non-superstitous world?

Usually when we encounter a highly complex highly ordered anything, we tend to assume an intelligent creator.

If you came upon a spaceship out in the woods, you probably wouldn't assume it arose from a series of random purely mechanical events.

Felasco wrote:

If you came upon a spaceship out in the woods, you probably wouldn't assume it arose from a series of random purely mechanical events.

No, of course not. In that hypothetical world, with my scientific education, I would assume that the spaceship was manufactured in some space-ship yard somewhere.

However, it still does not answer my question (see above - underlined and highlighted).

The assumption you made about the space ship is no different than the assumption many make about reality at large.

Someone sees something highly complex and ordered, and they assume or theorize an intelligent creator.

Your question is answered, but perhaps you don't like the answer?

I was thinking about something like: I have memories going back to about the age of four. Obviously I don't remember everything, but I do remember a lot. When I examine my memories, step by step, from year to year, I keep asking myself: could this event in my life have suggested some kind of supernatural reality, based on all the scientific and technical knowledge I possessed at the time -- if I had never been introduced to the concept by my culture?

In your personal case, I have no idea.

In the case of billions of others over thousands of years, in every time and place and corner of the world, the answer is obviously yes.

How about your own personal case?

Ned Wrote:

Can you imagine anything that would have made you speculate about a possible god, based on your own personal experience in this hypothetical non-religious, non-superstitous world?

I'm not sure what you mean, Ned. If you're speaking of a "hypothetical world" do you also mean to pose the question with reference to only "hypothetical experiences" we could have within such a world? If so, I'm confused about what a "hypothetical" experience would look like, and how I would know what I needed to know to answer.

Or do you mean, "Given your *actual* experiences, plus a hypothetical world in which there are no religions, would those *actual* experiences cause you to speculate about a possible God?

Immanuel Can wrote:Ned Wrote:

Can you imagine anything that would have made you speculate about a possible god, based on your own personal experience in this hypothetical non-religious, non-superstitous world?

I'm not sure what you mean, Ned. If you're speaking of a "hypothetical world" do you also mean to pose the question with reference to only "hypothetical experiences" we could have within such a world? If so, I'm confused about what a "hypothetical" experience would look like, and how I would know what I needed to know to answer.

Or do you mean, "Given your *actual* experiences, plus a hypothetical world in which there are no religions, would those *actual* experiences cause you to speculate about a possible God?

I share IC's confusion, but I think I know what you're trying to get at. I think there is an inherent paradox in your hypothetical situation, because you are asking us to reflect on our past experiences and examine if we could ascribe any of these experiences to an interaction with/influence by God. Surely this is putting the cart before the horse, because we would be mining our memories in the knowledge that God was a possibility. It's a bit like knowing the twist in a movie and then watching the movie again but this time knowing what parts to look out for.

I think for many people, it's their claim of experience with the supernatural that would probably provide evidence that there is a God. For example, sensing a supenatural presence, coincidental events. Of course, I don't believe in ghosts (or God) so I'm probably not best placed to answer you question.

Yes i would.
for many reasons.

those that do not. that go by ideas alone and not evidence.

May be correct.. but they have to show design as false. that design in structure of our reality.
is false